How Young Is Too Young For The Death Penalty?

[HisChildForever]

Veridicus asked: [b]demonstrate how Capital Punishment will decrease prision violence/murder/rape which are the impetus for your support[/b]

Let us examine prison gangs.

[b] History and background: There are five original major prison gangs known as "Traditional Prison Gangs." These prison gangs, known for their violence, formed in the 1960's and 1970's in the California corrections system and were originally formed by inmates as a means to protect themselves from other groups and inmate predators. Most prison gangs are found in the states of California, Arizona, Texas and Florida, but they are also in many other states where they have had a major impact on the state prison systems, They have also spread throughout the Federal Bureau of Prisons where they are known as "disruptive groups." In addition to the original prison gangs there are many other prison gangs. Some have similar names but in most cases, have no direct connection to the original gangs other than friendly alliances.

Joining the list of of the five traditional prison gangs is a group known as the "Ñetas", which originated in the Puerto Rico prison system and has spread to the United States. This group may be found in prison systems (primarily, the East Coast) that have a Puerto Rican or Hispanic inmate population.

[u]These prison gangs, whether Black, Hispanic, or White gangs, are known for their viciousness and violence and use this reputation to maintain power and control over other inmates. The violence includes assaults and murders of inmates, correctional officers and persons outside of the prison walls.[/u] [/b]

Source: [url="http://www.gangsorus.com/prisongangs.html"]http://www.gangsorus.com/prisongangs.html[/url]

Many leaders and members of prison gangs have murdered inside and outside of prison. If such dangerous members of our society were sentenced to the death penalty, we would see a decrease in crime within prison (as well as outside of prison).

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772325' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:11 PM']The 'civilized' way inevitably involves the use of a physician to be performed properly. As a physician in training, I find this prospect as revolting as abortion. If the state wants to execute a prisoner, it can pay an armed servicemen to pull a trigger or swing the blade. Physicians have no place in causing death.[/quote]

This information is incorrect.

[b]
In 1977, Oklahoma became the first state to adopt lethal injection as a means of execution, though it would be five more years until Charles Brooks would become the first person executed by lethal injection in Texas on December 2, 1982. Today, 35 of the 36 states that have the death penalty use this method. When this method is used, the condemned person is usually bound to a gurney and a member of the execution team positions several heart monitors on this skin. Two needles (one is a back-up) are then inserted into usable veins, usually in the inmates arms. Long tubes connect the needle through a hole in a cement block wall to several intravenous drips. The first is a harmless saline solution that is started immediately. Then, at the warden's signal, a curtain is raised exposing the inmate to the witnesses in an adjoining room. Then, the inmate is injected with sodium thiopental - an anesthetic, which puts the inmate to sleep. Next flows pavulon or pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes the entire muscle system and stops the inmate's breathing. Finally, the flow of potassium chloride stops the heart. Death results from anesthetic overdose and respiratory and cardiac arrest while the condemned person is unconscious. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991) [u]Medical ethics preclude doctors from participating in executions. However, a doctor will certify the inmate is dead.[/u] This lack of medical participation can be problematic because often injections are performed by inexperienced technicians or orderlies. If a member of the execution team injects the drugs into a muscle instead of a vein, or if the needle becomes clogged, extreme pain can result. Many prisoners have damaged veins resulting from intravenous drug use and it is sometimes difficult to find a usable vein, resulting in long delays while the inmate remains strapped to the gurney. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991) [/b]

Source: [url="http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods"]http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772287' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:26 PM']I am sorry WInchester for assuming that everyone here would have some familiarity the OT. It will not happen again.

Since I can not appeal to your OT knowledge how about I try reason? If you were right then God still eliminates evil from the world himself. Why then do you refuse to allow himt o deal with criminals in HIS time?

Pride seems to be at the root of this issue. (No not just for you Winchester)[/quote]
You miss the point, we are quite familiar with the OT. We are also familiar with the teaching of the Church for the last 2000 years, not just the last 40.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772320' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:03 PM'][b]TED BUNDY, 1978[/b]
The devil knows when to look attractive. And Ted Bundy was handsome and cultured and charming. Until he was strangling and mutilating his victims, displaying their lopped-off heads in his apartment and sleeping with their corpses until putrefaction made it unbearable. Then he was simply the devil. By 1989, when he was executed in the electric chair in Florida at the age of 43, he had confessed to just about 30 murders but there could have been at least four more. He was an insatiable killer. One theory has him killing as early as the age of 14, but Bundy -- who chose to divulge many of his secrets as he tried to bargain for more time before execution -- never confessed to that incident. As a law student, Bundy had been arrested on a kidnapping charge in 1975 and was awaiting trial for murder in December 1977 when he escaped. From January to February of 1978, he went on a spree of killing and rape. Among his victims was a 12-year-old girl. Finally brought to trial, he acted as his own defense lawyer in a mesmerizing televised legal proceeding. And despite the horror of his acts, he proposed marriage to and wed a former coworker from behind bars. He also received thousands of letters from female fans. At the end, though, his appeals were exhausted and his attempts to manipulate the system became tiresome. His wife divorced him and took custody of their child. Somewhere out there is a young woman who may not know that her father was the devil.
Source: [url="http://www.time.com/time/2007/crimes/14.html"]http://www.time.com/time/2007/crimes/14.html[/url][/quote]

By KnightofChrist's logic, indeed this man has forfeited his right to life. He is not the devil as this blurb so sensationally suggests; he is a man, and he is not beyond redemption regardless of the heiniousness of his crimes (and yes I know all about Ted Bundy). But again, we have established that it IS the state's perogative whether to exercise its power to use the sword. Had Ted Bundy killed anyone else while in prison? Has he injured any guards? Was he a rapist in prison? These have been the main arguments thus far for exercising the right of a state for capital punishment when permanent carceration is another option. What precisely, other than a [i]pre-emptive [/i]execution of divine justice that has yet to be shown as necessary, did his execution accomplish?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772330' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:18 PM'].....
Many leaders and members of prison gangs have murdered inside and outside of prison. If such dangerous members of our society were sentenced to the death penalty, we would see a decrease in crime within prison (as well as outside of prison).[/quote]

This information gives support for the whole-sale Capital Punishment of anyone belonging to a "prison gangs" but not for anyone CONVICTED of MURDER...who again are the individuals we are discussing should be executed in the preceding posts.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772334' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:22 PM']What precisely, other than a [i]pre-emptive [/i]execution of divine justice that has yet to be shown as necessary, did his execution accomplish?[/quote]

Justice for the victims, and the protection of the rest of society, specifically the other people in the prison population.

[rkwright]

I think its funny how these threads resurface every 5-6 months, with the same arguments over and over and over... What is even more amazing is the idea that anyone thinks they are "right" on this issue. Our Pope has said Catholics can have a legitimate diversity of opinion on this matter... which means Veridicus, even if you can't form the best argument right now, the Pope has said you can believe the death penalty is not necessary anymore.

Don't worry Veridicus, you're in good company with your belief.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772332' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:21 PM']This information is incorrect.

[b]
In 1977, Oklahoma became the first state to adopt lethal injection as a means of execution, though it would be five more years until Charles Brooks would become the first person executed by lethal injection in Texas on December 2, 1982. Today, 35 of the 36 states that have the death penalty use this method. When this method is used, the condemned person is usually bound to a gurney and a member of the execution team positions several heart monitors on this skin. Two needles (one is a back-up) are then inserted into usable veins, usually in the inmates arms. Long tubes connect the needle through a hole in a cement block wall to several intravenous drips. The first is a harmless saline solution that is started immediately. Then, at the warden's signal, a curtain is raised exposing the inmate to the witnesses in an adjoining room. Then, the inmate is injected with sodium thiopental - an anesthetic, which puts the inmate to sleep. Next flows pavulon or pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes the entire muscle system and stops the inmate's breathing. Finally, the flow of potassium chloride stops the heart. Death results from anesthetic overdose and respiratory and cardiac arrest while the condemned person is unconscious. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991) [u]Medical ethics preclude doctors from participating in executions. However, a doctor will certify the inmate is dead.[/u] This lack of medical participation can be problematic because often injections are performed by inexperienced technicians or orderlies. If a member of the execution team injects the drugs into a muscle instead of a vein, or if the needle becomes clogged, extreme pain can result. Many prisoners have damaged veins resulting from intravenous drug use and it is sometimes difficult to find a usable vein, resulting in long delays while the inmate remains strapped to the gurney. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991) [/b]

Source: [url="http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods"]http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods[/url][/quote]


I am familiar with the method of capital punishment. Their (physicians) participation is usually indirect because they must be consulted if procedure is occurring properly. This is still, in my opinion, a breach of ethics.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Veridicus

[rkwright]

WORTHINESS TO RECEIVE HOLY COMMUNION — GENERAL PRINCIPLES
T | T | T | T by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

1. Presenting oneself to receive Holy Communion should be a conscious decision, based on a reasoned judgement regarding one’s worthiness to do so, according to the Church’s objective criteria, asking such questions as: “Am I in full communion with the Catholic Church? Am I guilty of grave sin? Have I incurred a penalty (e.g. excommunication, interdict) that forbids me to receive Holy Communion? Have I prepared myself by fasting for at least an hour?” The practice of indiscriminately presenting oneself to receive Holy Communion, merely as a consequence of being present at Mass, is an abuse that must be corrected (cf. Instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum,” nos. 81, 83).

2. The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorise or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. [...] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propoganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’” (no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. [...] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74).

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. [i]For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment[/i] or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [i]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/i]

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772301' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:40 PM']No, society must be protected. Like it or not society includes those in prison too, the inmates and the jailers.[/quote]

Cute... pretending to care about prisoners...

This is cyclical and ridiculous. I dont know how you people survive it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772316' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:58 PM']This is a good quote to show that the state does have the power to execute with the sword; but "evil" is a general term and does not explicitly state under which cases "the sword is necessary." What is "evil" here dogmatically defined or revealed in Scripture? Mosaic Law evils? 10 commandments? just "Murder"? Or is Paul leaving it up to the state, as God's minister, to determine what and when the "sword" is necessary? And again, is what the state is bound to conclude dogmatically defined?[/quote]

You must remember that the Church teaches and has always taught that Justice must be proportionate to the crime. That being said I can not play 20 questions. This has to be the thousandth time this debate has come up on phatmass. There is very hard evidence that the Universal Magisterium of the Church does in fact recognize the states right to Capital Punishment. I have offend just some of that evidence, all that has be provide in response are questions. In all of these debates the anti-death plenty side has never shown nothing, but there own mere opinion or the opinion of someone else on the matter. While they can find statements from Church officials from the last 50 years, which even those officials do not really deny the states right, or that it can be used. The anti-death plenty side has in all those debate greatly failed to provide hard evidence that the [b]Universal Magisterium[/b] is against the use of capital punishment. The reason for that such evidence does not exist.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772336' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:25 PM']This information gives support for the whole-sale Capital Punishment of anyone belonging to a "prison gangs" but not for anyone CONVICTED of MURDER...who again are the individuals we are discussing should be executed in the preceding posts.[/quote]

A lot of the inmates in prison gangs are in prison BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF MURDER (hey look, I can use caps too!) They were either (a) in a gang, committed a murder, and are now in prison - and in a prison gang or (b) committed a murder, are now in a prison, and have since joined a gang. My source touches the surface of prison gang violence and murder.

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772341' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:27 PM']Their participation is usually indirect because they must be consulted if procedure is occurring properly.[/quote]

This is not what you said initially. Initially you said [b]The 'civilized' way inevitably involves the use of a physician to be performed properly.[/b] This is incorrect. A doctor is present but the doctor is not administering the drug. The doctor is there (a) for emergency and (b) to state that the inmate is dead.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772332' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:21 PM']This information is incorrect.

[b]
In 1977, Oklahoma became the first state to adopt lethal injection as a means of execution, though it would be five more years until Charles Brooks would become the first person executed by lethal injection in Texas on December 2, 1982. Today, 35 of the 36 states that have the death penalty use this method. When this method is used, the condemned person is usually bound to a gurney and a member of the execution team positions several heart monitors on this skin. Two needles (one is a back-up) are then inserted into usable veins, usually in the inmates arms. Long tubes connect the needle through a hole in a cement block wall to several intravenous drips. The first is a harmless saline solution that is started immediately. Then, at the warden's signal, a curtain is raised exposing the inmate to the witnesses in an adjoining room. Then, the inmate is injected with sodium thiopental - an anesthetic, which puts the inmate to sleep. Next flows pavulon or pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes the entire muscle system and stops the inmate's breathing. Finally, the flow of potassium chloride stops the heart. Death results from anesthetic overdose and respiratory and cardiac arrest while the condemned person is unconscious. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991) [u]Medical ethics preclude doctors from participating in executions. However, a doctor will certify the inmate is dead.[/u] This lack of medical participation can be problematic because often injections are performed by inexperienced technicians or orderlies. If a member of the execution team injects the drugs into a muscle instead of a vein, or if the needle becomes clogged, extreme pain can result. Many prisoners have damaged veins resulting from intravenous drug use and it is sometimes difficult to find a usable vein, resulting in long delays while the inmate remains strapped to the gurney. (Ecenbarger, 1994 and Weisberg, 1991) [/b]

Source: [url="http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods"]http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods[/url][/quote]

I guess that's why the execution I witnessed went so wrong, because someone unqualified started the meds. He didn't get paralyzed, and his death scene was so horrific that two people passed out. One was a male witness who fell across knocking into other people in the witness box. He did eventually die, and I guess that was the important thing.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772337' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:26 PM']Justice for the victims, and the protection of the rest of society, specifically the other people in the prison population.[/quote]

In terms of life, I don't think 'justice' is due anyone but God...and God can enact that when he pleases.

The rest of society can be protected; heck if we have to keep these people on sedatives to keep them from violence, so be it; it is done in psych wards.

And again...my running argument is that is has yet to be demonstrated statistically that the people who would be affected by capital punishment are the ones ENDANGERING the rest of the prison population. This just seems like an anecdotal assumption to me rather than anything statistically relevant. We are talking about capital punishment for CONVICTED MURDERERS (who have forfeited their right to life), but it has not been shown that they are the ones that are the most danger in prison populations.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772346' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:34 PM']Cute... pretending to care about prisoners...

This is cyclical and ridiculous. I dont know how you people survive it.[/quote]

So do you have anything to really add to this debate or are you just going to waste our time with pointless and inaccurate statements and judgements?