HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772289' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:30 PM']Again this is a rational point of view. I am not arguing that you guys are completely off base. But the majority of the responses have been in regard to 'protecting the guards' and as I have tried to demonstrate in my responses, which have been little addressed I might add, is that it has yet to be shown that CONVICTED MURDERERS commit a disproportionate number of guard/prisoner murders or violence or rape. We are talking about capital punishment for CONVICTED MURDERERS who have "forfeited their right to life" so show me statistically that life in prison for them is any more of a risk than anyone else other than just the anecdotal assumption that murders commit more violent crime within a prison. I think that is a fair request.[/quote] It is not a fair request, actually. You said you cannot "provide" the alternative possibilities to the death penalty, and yet you want us to support our argument with statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Sincere question... The language in the catechism all refers to protecting the PUBLIC from these criminals correct? So people who decide to work in prisons or those who occupy them might not be included right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772297' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:37 PM']It is not a fair request, actually. You said you cannot "provide" the alternative possibilities to the death penalty, and yet you want us to support our argument with statistics.[/quote] Yes, it IS a fair request. You cannot criticize me for lacking sufficient alternative and then deny me the same. I am not sure why you think my insufficiencies somehow expunge your own responsibilities in providing a "strong" argument. Show me how its done. Seriously your whole argument hinges upon capital punishment decreases the negative consequences (death/violence/rape in prison) of keeping a CONVICTED MURDERER alive. My argument hinges upon there being a glimmer of an alternative to death. You haven't shown that death is necessary to begin with. I assume that life is the status quo until death is requisite. Show me death is required to alleviate your claims... Edited February 5, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772298' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:38 PM']Sincere question... The language in the catechism all refers to protecting the PUBLIC from these criminals correct? So people who decide to work in prisons or those who occupy them might not be included right?[/quote] No, society must be protected. Like it or not society includes those in prison too, the inmates and the jailers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772300' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:40 PM']Yes, it IS a fair request. You cannot criticize me for lacking sufficient alternative and then deny me the same. I am not sure why you think my insufficiencies somehow expunge your own responsibilities in providing a "strong" argument. Show me how its done.[/quote] But what it does show is the great weakness in your argument, and the strength of ours, that is very important to point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772295' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:34 PM']I don't think arguing in line of 'life' is ever a weak argument.[/quote] That is [b]not[/b] what I am referring to. You argue that the death penalty is wrong. Okay. You then say that there are alternative possibilities. Okay. You then say you cannot provide these alternatives. Huh? Your argument is not complete. You say the death penalty is wrong, you explain why, but when asked for your suggestions on how to handle these particular criminals, you draw a blank. You need to be able to cover all the bases. [quote]Your kind of reasoning and willingness to ignore "life" arguments[/quote] The reason why I feel the death penalty is justified is [b]because[/b] of the sanctity of life and how important it is to protect life, particularly [b]innocent[/b] life. [quote]are the kind of thoughts that justify pre-emptive abortions for "terminal disease" fetuses.[/quote] Good thing I am against [u]all forms[/u] of abortion. [quote]I refuse to consider killing as a viable alternative just because I haven't come up with a more creative solution to deal with the cost and pain of allowing life.[/quote] I am not telling you to consider the death penalty as a viable alternative. I am [b]asking[/b] you what the alternatives are, and frankly it makes absolutely no sense that you cannot support your stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772293' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:32 PM']God did not give Noah a shotgun and let him go wild on those who'd "forfeited their right to life"...God did not establish a state to take out these sinful people; God as the truest arbiter of justice took the life that was his to take.[/quote] Because save Noah and his family [u]everyone[/u] else was wicked and deserved death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772300' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:40 PM']Yes, it IS a fair request. You cannot criticize me for lacking sufficient alternative and then deny me the same. I am not sure why you think my insufficiencies somehow expunge your own responsibilities in providing a "strong" argument. Show me how its done.[/quote] So basically, you will not provide these alternative possibilities if I do not first provide what you are asking for? (By the way, still waiting for that response on post 79). Oh, so now you admit your argument has insufficiencies. [quote]Seriously your whole argument hinges upon capital punishment decreases the negative consequences (death/violence/rape in prison) of keeping a CONVICTED MURDERER alive.[/quote] If you have read our arguments, you will also see that we are concerned about the protection of society [b]as a whole[/b], for justice, and for deterrence. [quote]My argument hinges upon there being a glimmer of an alternative to death.[/quote] And the alternative is? [quote]You haven't shown that death is necessary to begin with. I assume that life is the status quo until death is requisite. Show me death is required to alleviate your claims...[/quote] We have shown you, and the Catechism has shown you. And I posted a nice blurb about serial killers. Cmom also provided something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772305' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:45 PM']..... I am not telling you to consider the death penalty as a viable alternative. I am [b]asking[/b] you what the alternatives are, and frankly it makes absolutely no sense that you cannot support your stance.[/quote] I will work on that. And in the mean time, demonstrate how Capital Punishment will decrease prision violence/murder/rape which are the impetus for your support. Again, I think this is a fair question since you are hinging life and death upon your argument. And I promise I will take the time to provide a more thought-out alternative in due time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 We could put them into large fenced areas to fend for themselves. No guards need to come into contact with them. Kind of like Escape from New York. Only those convicted of capital offenses, by choice, death row or wild west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772296' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:35 PM']Divine Revelation does indeed say that the state was given the right of the use of capital punishment by God. St. Paul under guidance of the Holy Spirit wrote as much in Rom 13:4. [i]For he (the state) is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.[/i] This is why the Universal magisterium has support for 2,000 years the state's right to use capital punishment.[/quote] This is a good quote to show that the state does have the power to execute with the sword; but "evil" is a general term and does not explicitly state under which cases "the sword is necessary." What is "evil" here dogmatically defined or revealed in Scripture? Mosaic Law evils? 10 commandments? just "Murder"? Or is Paul leaving it up to the state, as God's minister, to determine what and when the "sword" is necessary? And again, is what the state is bound to conclude dogmatically defined? Edited February 5, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1772312' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:53 PM']We could put them into large fenced areas to fend for themselves. No guards need to come into contact with them. Kind of like Escape from New York. Only those convicted of capital offenses, by choice, death row or wild west.[/quote] Yeah and we could videotape it and sell it online...oh wait wasn't that "The Running Man" starring the Gov. of California?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772311' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:52 PM']I will work on that. And in the mean time, demonstrate how Capital Punishment will decrease prision violence/murder/rape which are the impetus for your support. Again, I think this is a fair question since you are hinging life and death upon your argument. And I promise I will take the time to provide a more thought-out alternative in due time.[/quote] Okay, I will begin to hunt for sources. Meanwhile, I want to give you a blurb on Ted Bundy. As you know, he was executed. This is the sort of individual who justly deserves the death penalty. [b]TED BUNDY, 1978[/b] The devil knows when to look attractive. And Ted Bundy was handsome and cultured and charming. Until he was strangling and mutilating his victims, displaying their lopped-off heads in his apartment and sleeping with their corpses until putrefaction made it unbearable. Then he was simply the devil. By 1989, when he was executed in the electric chair in Florida at the age of 43, he had confessed to just about 30 murders but there could have been at least four more. He was an insatiable killer. One theory has him killing as early as the age of 14, but Bundy -- who chose to divulge many of his secrets as he tried to bargain for more time before execution -- never confessed to that incident. As a law student, Bundy had been arrested on a kidnapping charge in 1975 and was awaiting trial for murder in December 1977 when he escaped. From January to February of 1978, he went on a spree of killing and rape. Among his victims was a 12-year-old girl. Finally brought to trial, he acted as his own defense lawyer in a mesmerizing televised legal proceeding. And despite the horror of his acts, he proposed marriage to and wed a former coworker from behind bars. He also received thousands of letters from female fans. At the end, though, his appeals were exhausted and his attempts to manipulate the system became tiresome. His wife divorced him and took custody of their child. Somewhere out there is a young woman who may not know that her father was the devil. Source: [url="http://www.time.com/time/2007/crimes/14.html"]http://www.time.com/time/2007/crimes/14.html[/url] [quote name='CatherineM' post='1772312' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:53 PM']We could put them into large fenced areas to fend for themselves. No guards need to come into contact with them. Kind of like Escape from New York. Only those convicted of capital offenses, by choice, death row or wild west.[/quote] I thought one of the arguments used against the death penalty is that it violates the Eighth Amendment. How is what you propose...civilized? They would most likely beat each other and kill each other. It [b]is[/b] like putting them to death, only barbarically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772320' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:03 PM']I thought one of the arguments used against the death penalty is that it violates the Eighth Amendment. How is what you propose...civilized? They would most likely beat each other and kill each other. It [b]is[/b] like putting them to death, only barbarically.[/quote] The 'civilized' way inevitably involves the use of a physician to be performed properly. As a physician in training, I find this prospect as revolting as abortion. If the state wants to execute a prisoner, it can pay an armed servicemen to pull a trigger or swing the blade. Physicians have no place in causing death. Edited February 5, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772281' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:23 PM']I respect your argument and I think it is rationally conducted. I just don't know that I am convinced that divine revelation insists that "murderers forfeit their right to life, and deserve death." It is impressive that some popes and that Thomas Aquinas have come to that conclusion, but I do not know that it is dogmatic and therefore it is their opinion, however well thought out.[/quote] Up until the last 30 or 40 years this was the teaching of the Church, so its not surprising it has a 2000 year old history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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