KnightofChrist Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772246' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:27 PM']Please make sure you respond to my posts.[/quote] Me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772245' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:26 PM'][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=90243&view=findpost&p=1772220"]Again[/url], Capital punishment is a punishment which is proportionate for certain heinous acts, justice must be proportionate to the crime. Capital Punishment is a right given to the state by God Himself, no one not even the Church can over ride or take away that right. A person can be personally against it but that is it, personally against it. The Church has for 2,000 years supports it's just use.[/quote] Granted. And your response was impressive I must add. But in a liberal democracy is it not the majority "personal" opinion that sets state policy. By this I mean that given that it is a 'right' of the state to execute prisoners with proportionately heinious crimes, is it not within the state's power (or in a liberal democracy the opinion of the people) to restrain the capacity for capital punishment and instead attempt rehabilitation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772247' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:29 PM']Me?[/quote] No silly. Veridicus. I am awaiting responses to post numbers 79 and 81. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772254' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:36 PM']Granted. And your response was impressive I must add. But in a liberal democracy is it not the majority "personal" opinion that sets state policy. By this I mean that given that it is a 'right' of the state to execute prisoners with proportionately heinious crimes, is it not within the state's power (or in a liberal democracy the opinion of the people) to restrain the capacity for capital punishment and instead attempt rehabilitation?[/quote] Rehabilitation doesn't negate administering justice, and neither does majority rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772254' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:36 PM']Granted. And your response was impressive I must add. But in a liberal democracy is it not the majority "personal" opinion that sets state policy. By this I mean that given that it is a 'right' of the state to execute prisoners with proportionately heinious crimes, is it not within the state's power (or in a liberal democracy the opinion of the people) to restrain the capacity for capital punishment and instead attempt rehabilitation?[/quote] Not to be sidetrack but by every means it is indeed a Right of the state to the just use of capital punishment. A right is a freedom given and entrusted to someone by God Himself. While a state can show mercy and attempt rehabilitation the state is by no means bound or required to show this mercy, because Justice should be proportion to the crime. A person that murders another forfeits their right to life, and deserves death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772224' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:04 PM']Do you have any idea how creative some inmates are? Like the inmate who fashioned his plastic toothbrush into a sharp tool and stabbed it into the neck of the officer doing a roll call/announcements? And the guard who never saw it coming because it was routine for inmates to approach the podium and ask questions? (Story of the day from that awesome professor of mine.) Despite the training they get, there are always unfortunate "surprises."[/quote] I responded to this indirectly when responding to Winchester. Yes I know how creative some inmates are. Yes I know of toothbrush shivs. Yes there will always be surprises regardless of training. My point is that these crimes and this creativity is not necessarily limited to the CONVICTED MURDERERS located in jails. And I am assuming CONVICTED MURDERERS are the criminals in question with regard capital punishment being a proportionate punishment. I do not accept proposition that if we end the life of every CONVICTED MURDERER that guards will then be utterly free from 'unforunate surprises.' In fact, how 'surprising' would it actually be for a CONVICTED MURDERER to attack a guard?....a lot less surprising than for a embezzeler to do so. Your argument does not naturally follow that capital punishment would solve the unfortunate 'suprises' inflicted upon guards by inmates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772264' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:51 PM']Not to be sidetrack but by every means it is indeed a Right of the state to the just use of capital punishment. A right is a freedom given and entrusted to someone by God Himself. While a state can show mercy and attempt rehabilitation the state is by no means bound or required to show this mercy, because Justice should be proportion to the crime. A person that murders another forfeits their right to life, and deserves death.[/quote] I respect your argument and I think it is rationally conducted. I just don't know that I am convinced that divine revelation insists that "murderers forfeit their right to life, and deserve death." It is impressive that some popes and that Thomas Aquinas have come to that conclusion, but I do not know that it is dogmatic and therefore it is their opinion, however well thought out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 But the fundamental point of HisChildForever, and Winchester I believe is that throwing a murder in prison for the rest of their life does not protect society. Non-violate prisoners as well as guards have the right to be protected from violate murders just as much as those outside of prison, because they too are part of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772229' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:07 PM']You cannot debate your case without providing supporting arguments. Would you care to provide what specific "alternative possibilities" you are talking about?[/quote] I cannot provide specific "alternative possiblities." I am not going to pretend that I have studied the alternatives to killing of convicted murderers in depth; but I have little doubt in the human capacity for creativity nor for the fiscal capacity of our country to fund such investigation should we care enough to proceed down a path different than capital punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1772189' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:28 PM']So you can't support your argument that God does not prioritize according to the innocent and the guilty. He has a long history of actually killing the guilty. There's also the issue of Hell. Refute. Don't put the work of supporting your claim on me--your assertion, your job to support it. Not mine.[/quote] I am sorry WInchester for assuming that everyone here would have some familiarity the OT. It will not happen again. Since I can not appeal to your OT knowledge how about I try reason? If you were right then God still eliminates evil from the world himself. Why then do you refuse to allow himt o deal with criminals in HIS time? Pride seems to be at the root of this issue. (No not just for you Winchester) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772285' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:25 PM']But the fundamental point of HisChildForever, and Winchester I believe is that throwing a murder in prison for the rest of their life does not protect society. Non-violate prisoners as well as guards have the right to be protected from violate murders just as much as those outside of prison, because they too are part of society.[/quote] Again this is a rational point of view. I am not arguing that you guys are completely off base. But the majority of the responses have been in regard to 'protecting the guards' and as I have tried to demonstrate in my responses, which have been little addressed I might add, is that it has yet to be shown that CONVICTED MURDERERS commit a disproportionate number of guard/prisoner murders or violence or rape. We are talking about capital punishment for CONVICTED MURDERERS who have "forfeited their right to life" so show me statistically that life in prison for them is any more of a risk than anyone else other than just the anecdotal assumption that murders commit more violent crime within a prison. I think that is a fair request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772286' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:26 PM']I cannot provide specific "alternative possiblities."[/quote] Then you really have a weak argument. Still waiting for a response regarding post 79. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772287' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:26 PM']I am sorry WInchester for assuming that everyone here would have some familiarity the OT. It will not happen again. Since I can not appeal to your OT knowledge how about I try reason? If you were right then God still eliminates evil from the world himself. Why then do you refuse to allow himt o deal with criminals in HIS time? Pride seems to be at the root of this issue. (No not just for you Winchester)[/quote] God did not give Noah a shotgun and let him go wild on those who'd "forfeited their right to life"...God did not establish a state to take out these sinful people; God as the truest arbiter of justice took the life that was his to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772292' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:31 PM']Then you really have a weak argument. Still waiting for a response regarding post 79.[/quote] I don't think arguing in line of 'life' is ever a weak argument. Your kind of reasoning and willingness to ignore "life" arguments are the kind of thoughts that justify pre-emptive abortions for "terminal disease" fetuses. I refuse to consider killing as a viable alternative just because I haven't come up with a more creative solution to deal with the cost and pain of allowing life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772281' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:23 PM']I respect your argument and I think it is rationally conducted. I just don't know that I am convinced that divine revelation insists that "murderers forfeit their right to life, and deserve death." It is impressive that some popes and that Thomas Aquinas have come to that conclusion, but I do not know that it is dogmatic and therefore it is their opinion, however well thought out.[/quote] Divine Revelation does indeed say that the state was given the right of the use of capital punishment by God. St. Paul under guidance of the Holy Spirit wrote as much in Rom 13:4. [i]For he (the state) is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.[/i] This is why the Universal magisterium has support for 2,000 years the state's right to use capital punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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