How Young Is Too Young For The Death Penalty?

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1772164' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:08 PM']So the rainbow brought all the people the flood killed back to life, or is that just a way of not retracting your unsupportable claim?[/quote]

I believe you to be smart enough to re read genesis and understand what my statement meant.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772159' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:05 PM']Again I understand your arguement. It isn't an illogical conclusion. But the Holy Father and the American Bishops have read the same paragraphs and concluded that the death penalty is not necessary today.[/quote]

Their opinions do not change Church teaching.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1772164' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:08 PM']So the rainbow brought all the people the flood killed back to life, or is that just a way of not retracting your unsupportable claim?[/quote]

Rainbows aside, God as the author and creater of each individual life has the perogative to end life as he wills. It is not our place to attempt to critique the 'justice' of such decision because what God determines is just is just. You and I are NOT the authors of life and therefore it is not within our power to assume the perogative of who should be killed; life exists because God wills so and to take a life (even of a sadistic homocidal maniac) is contrary to respecing the authority of God. The Church recognizes that when sufficient incarceration capacity is lacking, it may become necessary for the protection of innocents to end the life of a sadistic homocidal maniac, but only because innocent death is imminent if this person cannot be contained. As I said in a previous post, we HAVE the capacity to effectively incarcerate killers in the US...it's just a measure of how humane we are with our excessive wealth.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Veridicus

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772171' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:16 PM']Their opinions do not change Church teaching.[/quote]

Understood. But it has to make you wonder what you know that they do not that would lead you to a different conclusion than an extraordinarily learned and wise man.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772173' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:16 PM']Rainbows aside, God as the author and creater of each individual life has the perogative to end life as he wills. It is not our place to attempt to critique the 'justice' of such decision because what God determines is just is just. You and I are NOT the authors of life and therefore it is not within our power to assume the perogative of who should be killed; life exists because God wills so and to take a life (even of a sadistic homocidal maniac) is contrary to respecing the authority of God. The Church recognizes that when sufficient incarceration capacity is lacking, it may become necessary for the protection of innocents to end the life of a sadistic homocidal maniac, but only because innocent death is imminent if this person cannot be contained. As I said in a previous post, we HAVE the capacity to effectively incarcerate killers in the US...it's just a measure of how humane we are with our excessive wealth.[/quote]

Woo Hoo!

We are NOT the authors of life... so let us enact justice to the limits that God has placed upon us. Justice in the human schope should be limited to protecting one other through imprisonment... let's let God decide when HE deems the proper time to call these criminals back to himself.

[HisChildForever]

Murderers, particularly serial killers, are dangers to our society.


[b]Evaluating a Psychological Profile of a Serial Killer[/b]

[excerpts]

[quote]Detailed, ongoing research by the F.B.I shows that many convicted serial killers enact their crimes because of the incredibly rich, detailed and elaborate violent fantasies (including the act of murder) that have developed in their minds as early as the age of seven and eight. What distinguishes killers from ‘normal’ civilians is that the aggressive day dreams that have been developed as children, continue to develop and expand through their adolescence right into manhood, where they are finally released into the real world (Wilson & Seamen, 1992). Through the use of murder and mayhem, the serial killer literally chases his dream. With each successive victim, he attempts to fine tune the act, striving to make his real life experiences as perfect as his fantasy (Apsche, 1993).

David Berkowitz, known as "The son of Sam", is a typical example of an average serial killer, and quiet normal in comparison to his other counterparts who have been known to eat their victims. From the years of 1976 through to 1977, he set out his reign of terror in New York City, by shooting over ten lovers who were parked in secluded areas. Upon being interviewed by John Douglas (a member of the F.B.I) at Attica State Prison, it was discovered that Berkowitz came from an adopted home, and upon discovering his real mother, was told by her that he wasn’t wanted. Originally being shy, insecure, and angry, he blossomed into a potential killer. He procured a large and powerful weapon, which in turn made him feel bigger and more powerful, and set about unknowingly to obtain revenge for what his mother had done to him.

In most cases, there is an event known as the "Pre-crime stresser", as discussed by Ressler, Burgess, and Douglas (1990). The pre-crime stresser can be looked at as the reason for why the person turns to killing as a form of release, even if the criminal does not realise the full extent of his motivations or fails to see the reasons behind the stress he feels. A clear example of this can be seen upon the questioning of Berkowitz who denied he had anything against women, nor did he have reason as to why he killed so many. In actually fact, his mother’s rejection was the stresser that ultimately turned him violent. He did not attack his mother directly (few serial killers ever attack the source of their resentment), but the majority of his killings where based on women who had a likeness to his mother.[/quote]

[quote]It is not so much the celebrity statues that they so enjoy, but instead the ability to control the lives of thousands of area residents, who are held in their grip of terror. "Psychologically the thrill-motivated killer tends to be a sociopath, someone with a disorder of character rather than the mind. He lacks a conscience, feels no remorse, and cares exclusively for his own pleasures in life…It has been estimated that 3% of all males in our society could be considered sociopathic" (Fox & Levin, 1994, p.18).[/quote]

Source: [url="http://www.uplink.com.au/lawlibrary/Documents/Docs/Doc5.html"]http://www.uplink.com.au/lawlibrary/Documents/Docs/Doc5.html[/url]

[Winchester]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772170' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:16 PM']I believe you to be smart enough to re read genesis and understand what my statement meant.[/quote]
So you can't support your argument that God does not prioritize according to the innocent and the guilty. He has a long history of actually killing the guilty. There's also the issue of Hell. Refute. Don't put the work of supporting your claim on me--your assertion, your job to support it. Not mine.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772173' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:16 PM']Rainbows aside, God as the author and creater of each individual life has the perogative to end life as he wills. It is not our place to attempt to critique the 'justice' of such decision because what God determines is just is just. You and I are NOT the authors of life and therefore it is not within our power to assume the perogative of who should be killed; life exists because God wills so and to take a life (even of a sadistic homocidal maniac) is contrary to respecing the authority of God. The Church recognizes that when sufficient incarceration capacity is lacking, it may become necessary for the protection of innocents to end the life of a sadistic homocidal maniac, but only because innocent death is imminent if this person cannot be contained. As I said in a previous post, we HAVE the capacity to effectively incarcerate killers in the US...it's just a measure of how humane we are with our excessive wealth.[/quote]
So you're a fan of the oubliette, then. Fine.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1772191' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:30 PM']So you're a fan of the oubliette, then. Fine.[/quote]

I never said I was a fan of solitary, nor did I insinuate that in any way. I am a fan of life and of letting God decide when a life is through and in doing what I can to promote life until God is ready to call it back to himself. I would direct you to address the heart of what I said in the preceding posts. I feel it was a significant enought point worth typing; you are free to disagree of course.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772195' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:34 PM']I never said I was a fan of solitary, nor did I insinuate that in any way. I am a fan of life and of letting God decide when a life is through and in doing what I can to promote life until God is ready to call it back to himself. I would direct you to address the heart of what I said in the preceding posts. I feel it was a significant enought point worth typing; you are free to disagree of course.[/quote]

Then what do you feel would be the appropriate way to handle murderers?

Edited February 4, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Winchester]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772195' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:34 PM']I never said I was a fan of solitary, nor did I insinuate that in any way. I am a fan of life and of letting God decide when a life is through and in doing what I can to promote life until God is ready to call it back to himself. I would direct you to address the heart of what I said in the preceding posts. I feel it was a significant enought point worth typing; you are free to disagree of course.[/quote]
So you have no problem exposing guards to the dangers of violent prisoners.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Winchester

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1772198' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:37 PM']So you have no problem exposing guards to the dangers of violent prisoners.[/quote]

In a word? No.

Guards, like our armed servicemen abroad, get money and benefits knowing they place their lives on the line. It is an honorable job, more honorable than most. But the danger to self is a known, accepted aspect of the job. These guards deserve adequate training and expertise to enable them to fully handle a beligerant (but unarmed of course) prisoner. This is where our money comes in. We have to care enough about life, of the innocent and the criminal, to be willing to let money leave our pockets and go into security, training, and protocol for the guards to keep them safe and then to the prisoner to attempt rehabilitation.

And again, I must note that not a single one of those responding to my posts has demonstrated adequately how the US penal system qualifies as "an existing case where capital punishment is necessary."

Edited February 4, 2009 by Veridicus

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772150' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:48 PM']I must admit that I am very confused by the response this issue gets on Phatmass. For a group who will defned bishops on just about anything why on earth would you not trust their guidance on matters life?

I understand that the death penalty seems just. The Bishops and the Holy Father disagree (for offenders in the west at least). So while professors and knee jerk reactions might lead us in one direction the Holy Father and the successors of the Apostles are leading us in another.[/quote]

I know what the Catechism says:
2267:
Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church [color="#4169E1"]does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.[/color]
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "[color="#4169E1"]are very rare, if not practically non-existent."68[/color]



It has nothing to do with professors and knee-jerk reactions, it has to do with justice.

These are the kind of criminals I am referring to:
Melvin and Linda Lorenz, and their son Richard were killed by Roger Stafford. Melvin stopped on a highway near Purcell, Okla., to help what he thought was a woman whose car had broken down, but instead was ambushed by Stafford and his brother, using Stafford's wife as bait. Less than a month after these horrific murders, the trio killed six employees of a steak house in Oklahoma City.

In 1985, 13-year-old Karen Patterson was shot to death in her bed in North Charleston, S.C. Her killer was a neighbor who had already served 10 years of a life sentence for murdering his half-brother Charles in 1970. Joe Atkins cut the Pattersons' phone lines, then entered bearing a machete, a sawed-off shotgun, and a pistol. Karen's parents were chased out of their home by Atkins. Karen's mom ran to the Atkins home nearby, where Joe then murdered his adopted father, Benjamin Atkins, 75, who had worked to persuade parole authorities to release Joe from the life sentence.

When Katy Davis observed three strangers outside her Austin, Texas, apartment, she walked away. Returning later, she was attacked and forced to open the door by Charles Rector, on parole for a previous murder. The men ransacked her apartment, abducted her and took her to a lake where she was beaten, gang-raped, shot in the head and repeatedly forced underwater until she drowned.


It also depends on what you consider rare.
There were 2,293,157 prisoners in the US on Dec 1, 2007.
There are 3,300 people on death row.


We are not capable of defending human lives against unjust agressors even in prison.

" During the two-year period from 2001 through 2002, three states reported 43 percent of all prison murders -- California, 21; Texas, 10 and six in Maryland. " [Justice Dept]

The non-governmental organization Human Rights Watch raised concerns with prisoner rape and medical care for inmates.[19] In a survey of 1,788 male inmates in Midwestern prisons by Prison Journal, about 21% claimed they had been coerced or pressured into sexual activity during their incarceration, and 7% claimed that they had been raped in their current facility.[20][Wiki]

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772196' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:35 PM']What are you a fan of?[/quote]

Please return to post #69 or to post #70 where you quoted of what I am a fan. Please read it again.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772208' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:46 PM']Please return to post #69 or to post #70 where you quoted of what I am a fan. Please read it again.[/quote]

Please go back to the post you are quoting and see the edit I made.