CatherineM Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771943' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:37 AM']I know a drug addict who lives in an asian country where you die if your caught doing drugs, he says its the one place on earth where he is absolutely motivated to be absolutely clean the rest of his life.[/quote] That would definitely keep me from using anything. I guess living in a country where they stone women for adultery would definitely keep me from even looking at another man. I wonder if it is a coincidence that the sexual revolution in the US happened right after the US stopped capital punishment for rape alone? Until the 50's, rape was also punished by capital punishment. Was that just about harsh punishment, or was that because we looked at women differently before the 60's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771943' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:37 PM']I know a drug addict who lives in an asian country where you die if your caught doing drugs, he says its the one place on earth where he is absolutely motivated to be absolutely clean the rest of his life.[/quote] Well in this case I would say the ends do not justify the means. Killing drug addicts is much different than killing murders. Nonetheless, the deterrence effect seems debatable at best. Secondly, I don't think the utilitarian style justice fits well with protecting individual dignity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1772013' date='Feb 4 2009, 03:05 PM']Nonetheless, the deterrence effect seems debatable at best. Secondly, I don't think the utilitarian style justice fits well with protecting individual dignity.[/quote] If you knew the penalty for drugs was death by hanging would you tke a chance? I think that would be a definite deterrence for anyone with the least amount of common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772018' date='Feb 4 2009, 02:11 PM']If you knew the penalty for drugs was death by hanging would you tke a chance? I think that would be a definite deterrence for anyone with the least amount of common sense.[/quote] You're right that it would work. But that is probably oppression. I mean you can force people to do most anything by threatening them with death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1772027' date='Feb 4 2009, 03:29 PM']You're right that it would work. But that is probably oppression. I mean you can force people to do most anything by threatening them with death.[/quote] Is it really "oppression"? *the act of subjugating by cruelty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771844' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:10 AM']Since I visit and work with prisoners on a regular basis I feel the need to defend them against these generalizations that the are selfish, dangerous and unrepentant.[/quote] Where did I say that [u]all[/u] prisoners are selfish, dangerous, and unrepentant? Furthermore, I may not visit and work with prisoners (something I will be doing as a career), but I am being instructed by professionals who have had such experience. One of my current professors has served on parole boards and has shared numerous experiences regarding inmates who put up a good front just to get early release. This professor has outstanding credentials and I do not doubt his expertise. Rest assured that I do not doubt yours, either. I, too, aspire to rehabilitate offenders and reintegrate them back into the community. I also have a very positive mindset - inmates need to be treated with dignity and respect as persons. But at the same time, we must be realistic. There are inmates out there who will manipulate a caring person. There are inmates out there who will take advantage for selfish reasons. [quote]These characteristics are almost always found in these people when they commit the crimes that land them in jail, but more often that not, when these criminals are given access to programs that facilitate rehabilitation (combined with all of the time they have to contemplate their actions) they find themselves desperate to redeem themselves.[/quote] I certainly do not doubt such sincerity. But to quote my professor (hey he is super smart ) you have to [i]work hard[/i] to land yourself in prison. It is incredibly unlikely for a first-time offender to get sentenced to X years in prison. Therefore, the inmates in prison are more likely than not repeat offenders who have gone through rehabilitative and counseling programs. [u]To give you an idea.[/u] Warning --> PTI --> Probation --> Probation with conditions --> Probation with additional conditions --> ISP --> Boot camp --> Jail --> [b]Prison[/b] [quote]To answer one of your earlier questions, yes there are murders who are involved in the ministry I serve. I do not know everyone's story but one woman did share her story with me not too long ago. 11 years ago she stabbed a woman in cold blood over an inconsequential argument. She left the woman for dead and she got her wish. This is a person who could easily be dismissed by the rest of us as a heartless person who can not be trusted. She fully admits that is the person she WAS. While she was awaiting trail the gravity of what she did began to fall upon her. She told me she cried every minute she was awake for months. She pled guilty and asked the judge and jury to punish her in any way they feel is just (That's a BIG gamble in VA). I wish you all could meet this woman. She will likely never get out of jail. Why can't that be enough?[/quote] It cannot "be enough" for numerous reasons. - Justice must be served - I assume she has been given a determinate sentence. - If we begin let out murderers who are truly repentant, how many murderers who are [u]not[/u] truly repenant will put on a show to gain early release? (By "early release" I assume we are talking parole with special conditions.) - Furthermore, if this woman in particular was up for parole, she would need to be given a thorough psychological evaluation for the parole board to review (if she has not had one already, although I assume she has, and I continue to assume that she has been given one every 6 months-1 year). [quote]I want to address two things that seem to be key for the proponents of the death penalty here: 1) You are more likely to be murdered if you live in a large city than prisoners or those working with them. According the DOJ's analysis of state prison reports, the murder rate in state prisons (Where the vast majority of murderers are held) is 2.8 per 100,000. That rate is lower than the 66 largest cities in the US. (NYC's murder rate is 6.6 per 100,000)... clearly our prison system is capable of protect inmates and those who work with them.[/quote] And what are the statistics for attempted murders? injuries? rapes? Being concerned for the safety of the inmate and staff population includes all of those as well. [quote]2)What is there to lose by erring on the side of caution and allowing God to be the sole distributor of justice given the statistic above about the safety of those in prison?[/quote] Cmom answered this well. [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771865' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:51 AM']Human being do commit error, this is an imperfect world with imperfect people. That is not an excuse however, not to try to administer justice as fairly as possible. I don't think everyone who commits murder should get the death penalty, there are extenuating circumstances in some cases. Certainly not a 13 year-old. However some crimes do warrent dying.[/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771971' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:07 PM']I can not understand prioritizing people in order of innocence. Thankfully God does not do the same.[/quote] Ever heard of the Great Flood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I must admit that I am very confused by the response this issue gets on Phatmass. For a group who will defned bishops on just about anything why on earth would you not trust their guidance on matters life? I understand that the death penalty seems just. The Bishops and the Holy Father disagree (for offenders in the west at least). So while professors and knee jerk reactions might lead us in one direction the Holy Father and the successors of the Apostles are leading us in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1772149' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:48 PM']Ever heard of the Great Flood?[/quote] Do you recall the rainbow that followed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772150' date='Feb 4 2009, 04:48 PM']I must admit that I am very confused by the response this issue gets on Phatmass. For a group who will defned bishops on just about anything why on earth would you not trust their guidance on matters life? I understand that the death penalty seems just. The Bishops and the Holy Father disagree (for offenders in the west at least). So while professors and knee jerk reactions might lead us in one direction the Holy Father and the successors of the Apostles are leading us in another.[/quote] It is acceptable to support the death penalty in the circumstances we are explaining. [i]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] 2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." 68 Source: [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771891' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:25 AM']I agree that your theory would be most affective... but let's not forget that we are talking about human beings. We are to kill pople for drug use, assult, and rape? Where is the jsutice in that? What does that do to restore that person to right relationship with the community or God?[/quote] That's kinda my take on the whole issue. Capital punishment deprives someone of the time/life during which they could be impacted by a relationship with God and share that, even if it is only shared in the confines of a prison for the rest of their life. Is this depriving someone of their life and opportunity to be transformed by God really one of the underlying reasons why we find homocide so particularly unnerving? I mean I personally could care less whether someone that was murdered ever got to eat another whopper again, or go bowling, or get another girlfriend, or (insert activities)....homocide strikes me as so terrible because that individual was suddenly deprived of developing a better relationship with their creator and it wasn't the creator who decided to break things off. I just feel like the reason why homocide turns my stomach so much really should be considered when I look at those on death row for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772157' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:01 PM']It is acceptable to support the death penalty in the circumstances we are explaining. [i]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] 2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." 68 Source: [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm[/url][/quote] Again I understand your arguement. It isn't an illogical conclusion. But the Holy Father and the American Bishops have read the same paragraphs and concluded that the death penalty is not necessary today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772157' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:01 PM']It is acceptable to support the death penalty in the circumstances we are explaining. [i]The Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] ........ the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "[b]are very rare, if not practically nonexistent[/b]." 68[/quote] With the opulence with which we are blessed in the United States, I have a hard time fitting us into the "existent" cases. If death is the only option, the we are being to selfish with out funds and not willing to part with them to improve prison security or offer more involved rehabilitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772158' date='Feb 4 2009, 06:04 PM']That's kinda my take on the whole issue. Capital punishment deprives someone of the time/life during which they could be impacted by a relationship with God and share that, even if it is only shared in the confines of a prison for the rest of their life. Is this depriving someone of their life and opportunity to be transformed by God really one of the underlying reasons why we find homocide so particularly unnerving? I mean I personally could care less whether someone that was murdered ever got to eat another whopper again, or go bowling, or get another girlfriend, or (insert activities)....homocide strikes me as so terrible because that individual was suddenly deprived of developing a better relationship with their creator and it wasn't the creator who decided to break things off. I just feel like the reason why homocide turns my stomach so much really should be considered when I look at those on death row for whatever reason.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772151' date='Feb 4 2009, 04:49 PM']Do you recall the rainbow that followed?[/quote] So the rainbow brought all the people the flood killed back to life, or is that just a way of not retracting your unsupportable claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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