How Young Is Too Young For The Death Penalty?

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1771590' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:43 PM']That is not exactly the path I was taking with those statements. My essential point was that a murderer facing life in prison [without parole] is not going to be interested in good behavior because he or she will not be rewarded for this good behavior. A lot of the good behavior inmates exhibit is for selfish reasons - take the example I used regarding community service. Do the majority of the inmates truly want to give back to the community? The answer is typically no, they just want a change of pace and a chance to be outside in the world. Furthermore, the better behaved an inmate is, the more likely they will be given parole (if that is an option for them). But the murderer does not have the option of parole and therefore would not even bother to fake good behavior. This puts other inmates, as well as the correctional staff and visitors, at risk. It is not a matter of hope and forgiveness.[/quote]


Since I visit and work with prisoners on a regular basis I feel the need to defend them against these generalizations that the are selfish, dangerous and unrepentant. These characteristics are almost always found in these people when they commit the crimes that land them in jail, but more often that not, when these criminals are given access to programs that facilitate rehabilitation (combined with all of the time they have to contemplate their actions) they find themselves desperate to redeem themselves.

To answer one of your earlier questions, yes there are murders who are involved in the ministry I serve. I do not know everyone's story but one woman did share her story with me not too long ago. 11 years ago she stabbed a woman in cold blood over an inconsequential argument. She left the woman for dead and she got her wish. This is a person who could easily be dismissed by the rest of us as a heartless person who can not be trusted. She fully admits that is the person she WAS. While she was awaiting trail the gravity of what she did began to fall upon her. She told me she cried every minute she was awake for months. She pled guilty and asked the judge and jury to punish her in any way they feel is just (That's a BIG gamble in VA). I wish you all could meet this woman. She will likely never get out of jail. Why can't that be enough?

I want to address two things that seem to be key for the proponents of the death penalty here:


1) You are more likely to be murdered if you live in a large city than prisoners or those working with them. According the DOJ's analysis of state prison reports, the murder rate in state prisons (Where the vast majority of murderers are held) is 2.8 per 100,000. That rate is lower than the 66 largest cities in the US. (NYC's murder rate is 6.6 per 100,000)... clearly our prison system is capable of protect inmates and those who work with them.

2)What is there to lose by erring on the side of caution and allowing God to be the sole distributor of justice given the statistic above about the safety of those in prison?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771844' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:10 AM']What is there to lose by erring on the side of caution and allowing God to be the sole distributor of justice given the statistic above about the safety of those in prison?[/quote]

Are you assuming God can't work thru the justice system?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771844' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:10 AM']You are more likely to be murdered if you live in a large city than prisoners or those working with them. According the DOJ's analysis of state prison reports, the murder rate in state prisons (Where the vast majority of murderers are held) is 2.8 per 100,000. That rate is lower than the 66 largest cities in the US. (NYC's murder rate is 6.6 per 100,000)... clearly our prison system is capable of protect inmates and those who work with them.[/quote]

Then you have places like this:


04/21/2008
2 inmates killed in fighting at federal prison in Colo.
Two killed in Florence prison riot: The chaos started when prisoners reportedly celebrated Hitler's birthday.
By Nick Bonham and Tracy Harmon
The Pueblo Chieftain, Colo.

FLORENCE, Colo. — Two inmates were killed and five others injured when a riot broke out Sunday afternoon at the high security U.S. Penitentiary 2 miles south of Florence.

Traci Billingsley, a Federal Bureau of Prisons spokeswoman, confirmed two inmates died as a result of the 12:30 p.m. recreation yard incident that began when a group of white inmates reportedly began a noisy celebration of of Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler's birthday.

No staff injuries were reported in the incident, which Billingsley said lasted several hours. Reports said several gunshots were fired.

"I'm hearing 120 rounds were shot on the yard, and that's an amazing amount of firepower," State Rep. Liane "Buffie" McFadyen, D-Pueblo West, said late Sunday. "What I'm hearing is it was a racially motivated riot situation in conjunction with (Adolf) Hitler's birthday," which was Sunday.

The prisons are within McFadyen's House District 47.

Troy Eid, U.S. Attorney for Colorado, confirmed McFadyen's statements to a Denver newspaper.

The U.S. Penitentiary is home to 933 high-security federal inmates. It is one of four prisons at the Federal Correctional Complex, including the U.S. Penitentiary Administrative Maximum Facility, aka "Supermax;" the medium security Federal Correctional Institution and the minimum security satellite prison camp known as "The Camp."

The U.S. Penitentiary was placed on lockdown status and correctional officers from other prisons in the federal complex were called in to quell the incident, McFadyen said.

"To have correctional officers called from other facilities tells me this situation was at critical mass," McFadyen said.

The five injured inmates were taken to local area hospitals for treatments. Their conditions were not known late Sunday.

Two inmates were treated at Parkview Medical Center, according to C.W. Smith, the hospital's chief executive officer and president.

"We received a couple that were treated and transferred back," he said.

No information was released Sunday as to whether the inmates died at the hands of other inmates or from gunfire by prison guards.

"What makes USP dangerous is the people there are in general population," McFadyen said. "USP is a very dangerous institution. We forget how dangerous it is because (Supermax) is there. Just over a year ago, this same facility almost went up in a riot, but it was quelled."

She was referring to two disturbances in January 2007 when seven correctional officers were injured in the high-security prison and 30 others were called to assist during what was termed a near-riot. McFadyen joined the officers in a public call for congressional help during a Denver news conference at which staffers told how the disturbances nearly took the prison out of control.

Billingsley said the prison was placed on lockdown Sunday and "at no time was there a threat to the community." A statement to news media released at 6 p.m. added that "an investigation into the incident is being conducted."

At least some area residents, who would not give their names, were concerned enough about the situation to call news media to report the riot. Some reported ambulances had come and gone from the complex, correctional officers had been called in, and visits by prisoners' family members were called off.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771848' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:21 AM']Then you have places like this:


04/21/2008
2 inmates killed in fighting at federal prison in Colo.
Two killed in Florence prison riot: The chaos started when prisoners reportedly celebrated Hitler's birthday.
By Nick Bonham and Tracy Harmon
The Pueblo Chieftain, Colo.

FLORENCE, Colo. — Two inmates were killed and five others injured when a riot broke out Sunday afternoon at the high security U.S. Penitentiary 2 miles south of Florence.

Traci Billingsley, a Federal Bureau of Prisons spokeswoman, confirmed two inmates died as a result of the 12:30 p.m. recreation yard incident that began when a group of white inmates reportedly began a noisy celebration of of Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler's birthday.

No staff injuries were reported in the incident, which Billingsley said lasted several hours. Reports said several gunshots were fired.

"I'm hearing 120 rounds were shot on the yard, and that's an amazing amount of firepower," State Rep. Liane "Buffie" McFadyen, D-Pueblo West, said late Sunday. "What I'm hearing is it was a racially motivated riot situation in conjunction with (Adolf) Hitler's birthday," which was Sunday.

The prisons are within McFadyen's House District 47.

Troy Eid, U.S. Attorney for Colorado, confirmed McFadyen's statements to a Denver newspaper.

The U.S. Penitentiary is home to 933 high-security federal inmates. It is one of four prisons at the Federal Correctional Complex, including the U.S. Penitentiary Administrative Maximum Facility, aka "Supermax;" the medium security Federal Correctional Institution and the minimum security satellite prison camp known as "The Camp."

The U.S. Penitentiary was placed on lockdown status and correctional officers from other prisons in the federal complex were called in to quell the incident, McFadyen said.

"To have correctional officers called from other facilities tells me this situation was at critical mass," McFadyen said.

The five injured inmates were taken to local area hospitals for treatments. Their conditions were not known late Sunday.

Two inmates were treated at Parkview Medical Center, according to C.W. Smith, the hospital's chief executive officer and president.

"We received a couple that were treated and transferred back," he said.

No information was released Sunday as to whether the inmates died at the hands of other inmates or from gunfire by prison guards.

"What makes USP dangerous is the people there are in general population," McFadyen said. "USP is a very dangerous institution. We forget how dangerous it is because (Supermax) is there. Just over a year ago, this same facility almost went up in a riot, but it was quelled."

She was referring to two disturbances in January 2007 when seven correctional officers were injured in the high-security prison and 30 others were called to assist during what was termed a near-riot. McFadyen joined the officers in a public call for congressional help during a Denver news conference at which staffers told how the disturbances nearly took the prison out of control.

Billingsley said the prison was placed on lockdown Sunday and "at no time was there a threat to the community." A statement to news media released at 6 p.m. added that "an investigation into the incident is being conducted."

At least some area residents, who would not give their names, were concerned enough about the situation to call news media to report the riot. Some reported ambulances had come and gone from the complex, correctional officers had been called in, and visits by prisoners' family members were called off.[/quote]


Who is the say that these inmates are murders? Perhaps we should execute thieves and grug dealers to avoid the circumstances as well.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771846' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:14 AM']Are you assuming God can't work thru the justice system?[/quote]

Of course I would never place such a limitation on God. What I am assuming is that those who work in the justice system are humand are often in error (safe assumption?).

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771852' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:31 AM']Who is the say that these inmates are murders? Perhaps we should execute thieves and grug dealers to avoid the circumstances as well.[/quote]
The point of this is that prisons, even the most secure ones are not safe for the prisoners or the guards.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771855' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:35 AM']Of course I would never place such a limitation on God. What I am assuming is that those who work in the justice system are human are often in error (safe assumption?).[/quote]
Human being do commit error, this is an imperfect world with imperfect people. That is not an excuse however, not to try to administer justice as fairly as possible.
I don't think everyone who commits murder should get the death penalty, there are extenuating circumstances in some cases. Certainly not a 13 year-old.
However some crimes do warrent dying.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771862' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:46 AM']The point of this is that prisons, even the most secure ones are not safe for the prisoners or the guards.[/quote]

The DOJ (who is clearly a death penalty advocate) would say that the event in the article is an exception.

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771865' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:51 AM']Human being do commit error, this is an imperfect world with imperfect people. That is not an excuse however, not to try to administer justice as fairly as possible.
I don't think everyone who commits murder should get the death penalty, there are extenuating circumstances in some cases. Certainly not a 13 year-old.
However some crimes do warrent dying.[/quote]

I completely understand your position, I am just uncomfortable allowing words like "try" and qualifyers like "as fairly [i][/i]as possile[i][/i]" when we are talking about deciding death over life for someone.

[Winchester]

If we're going to rehabilitate criminals, we're going to have to remove the motivation to commit crime and the pressure to rejoin the criminal world.

That would mean removing other criminals. The best way to remove a criminal [i]leader [/i]is to kill him. I mention the leader because it is typically the grunts who go to prison. Gangs still run in prison, drugs still enter, rapes still occur. A good motivation to not do these things? Automatic death sentence for drug usage, rape and assault commited by prisoners. You will deter some and be empowered to remove those who are not deterred. You will make it a safer place for the remainder, and if they are not under the present threats of prison life, it will be easier to rehabilitate them.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771875' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:03 PM']The DOJ (who is clearly a death penalty advocate) would say that the event in the article is an exception.[/quote]
That claim is not supported by data:

[url="http://www.prisoncommission.org/pdfs/Confronting_Confinement.pdf"]http://www.prisoncommission.org/pdfs/Confr...Confinement.pdf[/url]

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1771884' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:11 PM']If we're going to rehabilitate criminals, we're going to have to remove the motivation to commit crime and the pressure to rejoin the criminal world.

That would mean removing other criminals. The best way to remove a criminal [i]leader [/i]is to kill him. I mention the leader because it is typically the grunts who go to prison. Gangs still run in prison, drugs still enter, rapes still occur. A good motivation to not do these things? Automatic death sentence for drug usage, rape and assault commited by prisoners. You will deter some and be empowered to remove those who are not deterred. You will make it a safer place for the remainder, and if they are not under the present threats of prison life, it will be easier to rehabilitate them.[/quote]


I agree that your theory would be most affective... but let's not forget that we are talking about human beings. We are to kill pople for drug use, assult, and rape? Where is the jsutice in that? What does that do to restore that person to right relationship with the community or God?

[Winchester]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771891' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:25 AM']I agree that your theory would be most affective... but let's not forget that we are talking about human beings. We are to kill pople for drug use, assult, and rape? Where is the jsutice in that? What does that do to restore that person to right relationship with the community or God?[/quote]
The justice is in protecting those who choose to avoid such behavior; it is just to protect the innocent. That's how I view the death penalty in all instances, which is why I advocate making leading a gang or other organized crime syndicate, being a drug dealer (as opposed to a pusher), molesting children, and rape capital crimes. Maybe I've seen too many rape victims to even think of executing a rapist as wrong.

I know we're talking about human beings. I'm merely placing the innocent in higher priority. Give them a week to get right with God: impending death often removes what simple punishment cannot.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Winchester

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771891' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:25 PM']I agree that your theory would be most affective... but let's not forget that we are talking about human beings. We are to kill pople for drug use, assult, and rape? Where is the jsutice in that? What does that do to restore that person to right relationship with the community or God?[/quote]

I know a drug addict who lives in an asian country where you die if your caught doing drugs, he says its the one place on earth where he is absolutely motivated to be absolutely clean the rest of his life.

[VoTeckam]

I can not understand prioritizing people in order of innocence. Thankfully God does not do the same.