rkwright Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772695' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:42 AM']Do you ask yourself what authority you have when you repeat the Church's teaching on a particular subject or issue? And how in what way is the quote from the Catechism of Trent not persuasive?[/quote] I think maybe your misunderstanding me. I meant authority as in a Church document or a source. Do you have any source that says the primary purpose of capital punishment is first justice and then secondly to protect society? The quote from Trent is not persuasive on this point. I still maintain that the quote from Trent allows the state to execute people in order to uphold the 5th commandment, the end of which is the protection of the common good. The last time we did this you and Goldenchild had all these documents, but none of them said the purpose of capital punishment was 1st justice and the 2nd protecting society. There was the trent one, the one from Aquinas about cutting off a limb... I was just wondering if you had any new ones since then that said it more directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1772664' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:20 AM']Do you have any authority (or should I say new authority since we last talked) on this? The quote from Trent isn't persuasive.[/quote] But it is Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772706' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:50 AM']But it is Church teaching. [/quote] I agree... Then again I see more and more on phatmass you can create some reason why you don't have to follow it. He's not my bishop, its not a dogma, its hasn't been dogmatically defined, it disagrees with the current Pope, ect. ect. I swear I've learned as many ways to discount 'teachings' and 'opinions' of the Church on phatmass as I have learned about the Church here. Anyways Just as a quick rant... I agree that the Church recognizes the state's power to execute people, and always has. I think the quote from Trent is very much in line with out current CCC - that the execution can only be done to protect society. I disagree with Knight (and maybe you cmom? I dunno...) that the state may execute someone solely on the basis of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='rkwright' post='1772705' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:49 AM']I think maybe your misunderstanding me. I meant authority as in a Church document or a source. Do you have any source that says the primary purpose of capital punishment is first justice and then secondly to protect society? The quote from Trent is not persuasive on this point. I still maintain that the quote from Trent allows the state to execute people in order to uphold the 5th commandment, the end of which is the protection of the common good. The last time we did this you and Goldenchild had all these documents, but none of them said the purpose of capital punishment was 1st justice and the 2nd protecting society. There was the trent one, the one from Aquinas about cutting off a limb... I was just wondering if you had any new ones since then that said it more directly.[/quote] The problem before and the problem now is that you and others only want to focus on the protect society issue. Just because the quotes also mention that does not mean that they also do not mention that it is a act of justice. Example The Catechism of The Council of Trent "Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, [b]to whom is entrusted power of life and death[/b], [b]by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty [u]and[/u] protect the innocent.[/b]" Punishing the guilty is an act of justice, and is mentioned first, which means it takes the most priority, protecting the innocent is secondary. Even if protecting the innocent could be done with the safest prisons on earth. The state would still be entrusted with the power of life and death, to punish the guilty proportionate to the crime that is committed. Also from St. Thomas Aquinas: [color="#FF0000"]"[b]The fact that the evil, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit the fact that they may be justly executed[/b], for the danger which threatens from [b]their way of life[/b] is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement. [/color]They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so stubborn that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from evil, it is possible to make a highly probable judgement that they would never come away from evil to the right use of their powers." This not so much mentions justice, but does point out that the state could still justly execute a murderer even with the thought that with life in prison there could be the hope that the person would repent. Pope Pius XII: "When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live." These words of Pius XII, make it clear that it is the act of murder that dispossess an individuals right to live, or that the act of murder is what gives the state the right to execute the criminal as a act of justice. The words of St Paul in Romans, make it clearer that the State uses the sword not so much to protect society but to "execute wrath upon him that doth evil." Romans 13:1-4 "Let every soul be subject to higher powers: for there is no power but from God: and those that are, are ordained of God. Therefore he that resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake." Edited February 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I say kill 'em young. As young as possible. Infants. Or better yet in the womb. Oh, wait, we already have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 While I'm not sure of you statement. Just to be clear the death penalty, and abortion are not by any means on the same level. Abortion is the murder of innocents and unjust. The death penalty when used justly is an act of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 "It must be remembered that power was granted by God, and to avenge crime the sword was permitted; he who carries out this vengeance is God's minister (Rm 13:1-4). What motive have we for condemning a practice that all hold to be permitted by God? We uphold, therefore, what has been observed until now, in order not to alter the discipline and so that we may not appear to act contrary to God's authority." Innocent 1, Episcopum Tolosanum ----------- "The secular power can without mortal sin carry out a sentence of death, provided it proceeds in imposing the penalty not from hatred but with judgment, not carelessly but with due solicitude." Innocent III, DS 795/425 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 “If the Pope were to deny that the death penalty could be [b]an exercise of retributive justice[/b], he would be overthrowing the tradition of two millenia of Catholic thought, denying the teaching of several previous popes, and contradicting the teaching of Scripture.” -Cardinal Avery Dulles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772681' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:31 AM']I take issue with that, Catholics are bound to believe that God has given the power of the sword to the state. [b]They can be personally against it's use, but should recognize the right does exist.[/b][/quote] This is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Knight those quotes support your opinion, but I do think the one from Trent, the ones from Aquinas (in this thread and the earlier thread), and the current CCC place emphasis on the common good over justice. Anyways, B16 has said that there can be legitimate diversity of opinion on this matter and there will never be a real "winner" on this issue. It seems pointless to really argue about it, especially on here. Although when I did a search for that older thread, I found a thread where Cam42 gave a very good argument against Apo on this issue. It is clear that the state has the right to execute criminals; when it is necessary to do this is an open question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='rkwright' post='1772966' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:50 PM']Knight those quotes support your opinion, but I do think the one from Trent, the ones from Aquinas (in this thread and the earlier thread), and the current CCC place emphasis on the common good over justice.[/quote] Even [i]if[/i] Trent, Aquinas (who again did say it would be just to execute even if prolong life in prison was a option), and the current CCC placed emphasis on the common good 'over' justice. This by no means would eliminate the necessity of it being an act of justice. If it was not an act of justice its use even to protect society would not be just. The punishment must be proportionate to the crime. If the crime ie murder was not proportionate to the punishment ie capital punishment, it would indeed be wicked for the state to enforce it, even to protect society. Also clearly the Catechism of The Council of Trent does place emphasis on justice, as well as the Divinely inspired writings of St Paul. [quote name='rkwright' post='1772966' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:50 PM']AnyProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 ys, B16 has said that there can be legitimate diversity of opinion on this matter and therProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 will never be a real "winner" on this issue. It seProxy-Connection: keep-alive Cache-Control: max-age=0 s pointless to really argue about it, especially on here. Although when I did a search for that older thread, I found a thread where Cam42 gave a very good argument against Apo on this issue. It is clear that the state has the right to execute criminals; when it is necessary to do this is an open question.[/quote] Please provide the quote from Pope Benedict XVI, and the link to the Cam42 debate. Not only is the states right to execute criminals clear but also that it is indeed an act of retributive justice based upon two millennial of Catholic teaching, several teachings of the Popes, and teaching from Holy Scripture. Edited February 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772681' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:31 AM']I take issue with that, Catholics are bound to believe that God has given the power of the sword to the state. They can be personally against it's use, but should recognize the right does exist.[/quote] I think there is criteria that have to be met in order to have that right, like lack of other methods to ensure safety of society. THe US Bishops must not think that the US is within its rights since they've spoken out against the death penalty before. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1773020' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:26 PM']I think there is criteria that have to be met in order to have that right, like lack of other methods to ensure safety of society. THe US Bishops must not think that the US is within its rights since they've spoken out against the death penalty before. -Katie[/quote] Of course they have the right to speak out. I'm not sure however, if they understand the dismal and wretched state of the US prison system, and the fact that we cannot seem capable of protecting the other prisoners or guards and therefore society from those intent on mayhem and murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1773017' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:24 PM']Even [i]if[/i] Trent, Aquinas (who again did say it would be just to execute even if prolong life in prison was a opinion), and the current CCC placed emphasis on the common good 'over' justice. This by no means would eliminate the necessity of it being an act of justice. If it was not an act of justice its use even to protect society would not be just. The punishment must be proportionate to the crime. If the crime ie murder was not proportionate to the punishment ie capital punishment, it would indeed by wicked for the state to enforce it, even to protect society. Also clearly the Catechism of The Council of Trent does place emphasis on justice, as while as the Divinely inspired writings of St Paul. Please provide the quote from Pope Benedict XVI, and the link to the Cam42 debate. Not only is the states right to execute criminals clear but also that it is indeed an act of retributive justice based upon two millennial of Catholic teaching, several teachings of the Popes, and teaching from Holy Scripture.[/quote] I really don't want to get into because there is no 'right' answer on this; I've already been through 2-3 threads on this issue and there is little productive value in any of it. Every act of punishment must be just. The exercise of capital punishment is only just when the common good of society is the motivating factor. This is my argument. I already posted the B16 in this thread a few pages back. The other debate is here [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=36477&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=36477&hl=[/url] Its a 34 pager that got closed down... enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772681' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:31 PM']I take issue with that, Catholics are bound to believe that God has given the power of the sword to the state. They can be personally against it's use, but should recognize the right does exist.[/quote] Thank you. It is good to know that one of the biggest supporters of the death penalty can admit that it is okay for a Catholic to not be in favor of it. I'm sure that will make John Paul II rest easier. I pray for a time when it is not longer deemed to be necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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