Socrates Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If the kid's old enough to twice rape an old lady at knife-point, the little bastard's old enough to fry. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772349' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:36 PM']A lot of the inmates in prison gangs are in prison BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF MURDER (hey look, I can use caps too!) They were either (a) in a gang, committed a murder, and are now in prison - and in a prison gang or (b) committed a murder, are now in a prison, and have since joined a gang. My source touches the surface of prison gang violence and murder.[/quote] So you are saying that a statistical majority of people on death row with murder convictions are members of one of these gangs? And that the majority of violent crime within prison is conducted by members of this gang that are on death row? I still do not think this line of evidence justifies the across-the-board statement that [i]convicted murderers [/i](how's italics?) commit more violent crime within prisons. [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772349' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:36 PM']This is not what you said initially. Initially you said [b]The 'civilized' way inevitably involves the use of a physician to be performed properly.[/b] This is incorrect. A doctor is present but the doctor is not administering the drug. The doctor is there (a) for emergency and (b) to state that the inmate is dead.[/quote] The physician is responsible for making sure the procedure is performed correctly and in this sense must step in and direct in emergencies; it becomes an emergency when it is not performed correctly; I understand that he doesn't have to conduct or direct the procedure at the get-go. When the 'untrained technician' is getting ready to stick the condemned in the muscle rather than the vein, the physician has to step in and tell them what to stick...thereby violating his oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772447' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:47 PM']You disagree that it is in fact a universal right of the civil authorities, or that it is paramount obedience to this Commandment? Because the Catechism of The Council of Trent makes it clear both are true. Execution Of Criminals Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. [u]Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence.[/u] Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.[/quote] The punishments deemed necessary by the state for capital crimes tend toward death for the criminal "since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence." Again, we are discussing the capacity to incarcerate effectively the criminal, thus giving security to "the city of the Lord." Show me that allowing convicted murderers to live their lives out in prison decreases the security of life...show me that convicted murderers commit the majority of violent crime within the prison system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 This has been educational; but I'm done. I have to study. Thank you everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772463' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:56 PM']So you are saying that a statistical majority of people on death row with murder convictions are members of one of these gangs? And that the majority of violent crime within prison is conducted by members of this gang that are on death row? I still do not think this line of evidence justifies the across-the-board statement that [i]convicted murderers [/i](how's italics?) commit more violent crime within prisons.[/quote] I am saying that many members of prison gangs are convicted murderers. The violence they cause (violence including murder and rape) would be greatly reduced if they were executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1772442' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:44 PM']God bless you for doing that. I really respect JPII for speaking out against the death penalty. Have you ever seen the movie "Dancer in the Dark?" It's a Lars von Trier movie with Bjork in it about the death penalty, and is very, very disturbing. -Katie[/quote] No, I haven't even heard about it. I'll have to look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1772508' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:57 PM']No, I haven't even heard about it. I'll have to look it up.[/quote] Lars is a very strange man and the movie isn't pleasant, but it is interesting. Bjork is in it, too-I love her as a singer and she really surprised me with her acting! -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771971' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:07 PM']I can not understand prioritizing people in order of innocence. Thankfully God does not do the same.[/quote] 1 Peter 2:13-14: "Because of the Lord, be obedient to every human institution, whether it be the emperor as soveriegn or to the governors he commissions [b]for the punishment of criminals and the recognition of the upright[/b]" (bolded emphasis mine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772464' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:01 PM']The punishments deemed necessary by the state for capital crimes tend toward death for the criminal "since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence." Again, we are discussing the capacity to incarcerate effectively the criminal, thus giving security to "the city of the Lord." Show me that allowing convicted murderers to live their lives out in prison decreases the security of life...show me that convicted murderers commit the majority of violent crime within the prison system.[/quote] But what you still forget is that the justification for Capital Punishment to protect society is secondary, or it is not the only justification for the use of Capital Punishment. Capital Punishment is an necessity because it respects man as an image of God, it is a proportionate punishment for certain heinous crimes, it has a purgatorial effect on the soul and lastly it protects society and the common good. The first two reasons are why Capital Punishment would still be just even if 'we had the safest prisons' on earth. Man is the image of God, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God man was made." Our soul is so precious to God that it is worth the blood of the Son of God. When a person murders another they commit a heinous act against that persons soul, their own soul, as well as God. God demands justice for such a heinous act, which is why He has given the state the power of the sword, if that state has the safest prisons on earth or not. As for your questions your own logic should tell you that someone that has committed murder can not be trusted to respect the lives of those around him. Would feel safe to be in the same room with murderers? Would you trust them to respect your life? I can not see anyway you could say yes to either. [i]Thus when we cease to consider what the criminal deserves and consider only what will cure him or deter others, we have tacitly removed him from the sphere of justice altogether; instead of a person, a subject of rights, we now have a mere object, a patient, a 'case'.[/i] - C.S. Lewis [url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4441/is_200609/ai_n17194955"]56% OF VIOLENT FELONS ARE REPEAT OFFENDERS[/url] Edited February 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772651' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:13 AM']But what you still forget is that the justification for Capital Punishment to protect society is secondary, or it is not the only justification for the use of Capital Punishment. Capital Punishment is an necessity because it respects man as an image of God, it is a proportionate punishment for certain heinous crimes, it has a purgatorial effect on the soul and lastly it protects society and the common good. The first two reasons are why Capital Punishment would still be just even if 'we had the safest prisons' on earth. Man is the image of God, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God man was made." Our soul is so precious to God that it is worth the blood of the Son of God. When a person murders another they commit a heinous act against that persons soul, their own soul, as well as God. God demands justice for such a heinous act, which is why He has given the state the power of the sword, if that state has the safest prisons on earth or not.[/quote] Do you have any authority (or should I say new authority since we last talked) on this? The quote from Trent isn't persuasive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1772664' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:20 AM']Do you have any authority (or should I say new authority since we last talked) on this?[/quote] Do you ask yourself this question when you repeat Church teaching? [quote name='rkwright' post='1772664' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:20 AM']The quote from Trent isn't persuasive.[/quote] How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 We've been over the issue of the Death Penalty Before. Catholics are not bound to be pro or anti death penalty, although the more recent writings of Popes and Bishops clearly state that they do not advocate it. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1772679' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:28 AM']We've been over the issue of the Death Penalty Before. Catholics are not bound to be pro or anti death penalty, although the more recent writings of Popes and Bishops clearly state that they do not advocate it. -Katie[/quote] I take issue with that, Catholics are bound to believe that God has given the power of the sword to the state. They can be personally against it's use, but should recognize the right does exist. Edited February 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772676' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:27 AM']Do you ask yourself this question when you repeat Church teaching? How so?[/quote] What? I don't understand your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' post='1772690' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:38 AM']What? I don't understand your question?[/quote] Do you ask yourself what authority you have when you repeat the Church's teaching on a particular subject or issue? And how in what way is the quote from the Catechism of Trent not persuasive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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