KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772352' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:37 PM']In terms of life, I don't think 'justice' is due anyone but God...and God can enact that when he pleases. The rest of society can be protected; heck if we have to keep these people on sedatives to keep them from violence, so be it; it is done in psych wards. And again...my running argument is that is has yet to be demonstrated statistically that the people who would be affected by capital punishment are the ones ENDANGERING the rest of the prison population. This just seems like an anecdotal assumption to me rather than anything statistically relevant. We are talking about capital punishment for CONVICTED MURDERERS (who have forfeited their right to life), but it has not been shown that they are the ones that are the most danger in prison populations.[/quote] But your own logic should give you the answer. You state that these convicted murders should be given time to repent and change their life. The only logical conclusion is that at least until and IF they do, they have not changed their lives, and continue to live as a violate murderer. By the act of murder they have already proven that they are in fact a danger to others, thus there is no real need to provide you with these statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772359' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:43 PM']But your own logic should give you the answer. You state that these convicted murders should be given time to repent and change their life. The only logical conclusion is that at least until and IF they do, they have not changed their lives, and continue to live as a violate murderer. By the act of murder they have already proven that they are in fact a danger to others, thus there is no real need to provide you with these statistics.[/quote] I disagree. I still think it fruitful to demonstrate that they continue to commit murder and violent crime in prison if those are the charges being laid as the basis for the necessity of their capital punishment. And by what criteria precisely do you judge that they are no longer violate murderers and have repented? Or is there no repentence for murderers? Edited February 5, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1772346' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:34 PM']Cute... pretending to care about prisoners... This is cyclical and ridiculous. I dont know how you people survive it.[/quote] When you reduce your argument to personal attacks, you automatically lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771843' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:09 AM']When you objectify women and only see them as means to an end, rape is the result. It is not sex, its power and control.[/quote] I agree-if a man is truly lusting, it's (unfortunately) all too easy to find any number of women who will consent to satisfy that need. Rape is definitely an assertion of dominance, power, control. For example, all male prisons are notorious for rape-do you think all of these men are homosexual? No, it's an act of "owning" someone, of showing them that you have power over them. The reason we say $(#($$($$*($ (insert any number of vulgarities) you is because we are metaphorically saying "I'm better, I'm stronger, I'm more powerful than you, you are under my command, I can make you do what you don't want to do." -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) Post 132. Read it please. Edited February 5, 2009 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772368' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:50 PM']I disagree. I still think it fruitful to demonstrate that they continue to committed murder and violent crime in prison if those are the charges being laid as the basis for the necessity of their capital punishment.[/quote] Fruitful it [b]maybe[/b], but the murderer has already proven they do not value life, or they would not have commit murder, and thus should wisely be consider a danger to others. Murder is the most wicked sin one can commit. The blood of the victim cries up to God for justice, which is why He has by natural law set up governments to protect society and enforce justice on the wicked. [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772368' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:50 PM']And by what criteria precisely do you judge that they are no longer violate murderers and have repented?[/quote] I do not. Also, a person's repentance of a crime does not, at all, mean they still do not have to answer for that crime nor does it mean the state should not enforce justice for the crime committed. Meaning that the murderer could or could not repent and the state could still justly execute the criminal for the crime of murder, and it would still be good in the eyes of God. Edited February 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1772350' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:36 PM']I guess that's why the execution I witnessed went so wrong, because someone unqualified started the meds. He didn't get paralyzed, and his death scene was so horrific that two people passed out. One was a male witness who fell across knocking into other people in the witness box. He did eventually die, and I guess that was the important thing.[/quote] That is so horrible. That must have really affected you. I'm truly sorry you had to see this execution. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772348' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:35 PM']You must remember that the Church teaches and has always taught that Justice must be proportionate to the crime. That being said I can not play 20 questions. This has to be the thousandth time this debate has come up on phatmass. There is very hard evidence that the Universal Magisterium of the Church does in fact recognize the states right to Capital Punishment. I have offend just some of that evidence, all that has be provide in response are questions. In all of these debates the anti-death plenty side has never shown nothing, but there own mere opinion or the opinion of someone else on the matter. While they can find statements from Church officials from the last 50 years, which even those officials do not really deny the states right, or that it can be used. The anti-death plenty side has in all those debate greatly failed to provide hard evidence that the [b]Universal Magisterium[/b] is against the use of capital punishment. The reason for that such evidence does not exist.[/quote] I am not, nor was it ever my intent, to argue whether states have the 'right.' If I went down those lines in a post, I apologize because I do believe they have the 'right.' In fact, I have conceded this in several posts. My point of contention is the [i]necessity [/i]of exercising this right in the modern era. It is as simple as that. Most of the arguments for why capital punishment is necessary in technologically advanced, materially-blessed states (such as the US) lay upon the 'threat' these individuals pose to prison inmates, guards, and society at large. I have asked that the burden of proof be demonstrated that those CONVICTED of MURDER (and I am glad everyone has learned to use caps as well) commit a disproportionate number of the rape/murder/violence within the prison system in order to substantiate this underlying basis for support in the continued exercise of the God-given right of the state to execute those having committed acts of sufficientg heiniousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772404' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:15 PM']I am not, nor was it ever my intent, to argue whether states have the 'right.' If I went down those lines in a post, I apologize because I do believe they have the 'right.' In fact, I have conceded this in several posts. My point of contention is the [i]necessity [/i]of exercising this right in the modern era. It is as simple as that. Most of the arguments for why capital punishment is necessary in technologically advanced, materially-blessed states (such as the US) lay upon the 'threat' these individuals pose to prison inmates, guards, and society at large. I have asked that the burden of proof be demonstrated that those CONVICTED of MURDER (and I am glad everyone has learned to use caps as well) commit a disproportionate number of the rape/murder/violence within the prison system in order to substantiate this underlying basis for support in the continued exercise of the God-given right of the state to execute those having committed acts of sufficientg heiniousness.[/quote] Again if someone else wants to bother with answering they can. It is not needed. A murderer has already proven they are a danger to others by there unholy act of murder. Also, the main reason for the use of capital punishment is that justice must fit the crime. A person that commits murder has dispossessed himself of the right to live and deserves death. The just use of capital punishment is a [u]universal[/u] right given by God to the state. This means all states, for all time, even in the modern era, even if we had the safest possible prisons ever. The state would still have the right and could and should still use it because it's use is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772420' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:28 PM']Again if someone else wants to bother with answering they can. It is not needed. A murderer has already proven they are a danger to others by there unholy act of murder. Also, the main reason for the use of capital punishment is that justice must fit the crime. A person that commits murder has dispossessed himself of the right to live and deserves death. The just use of capital punishment is a [u]universal[/u] right given by God to the state. This means all states, for all time, even in the modern era, even if we had the safest possible prisons ever. The state would still have the right [u]and could and should still use it[/u] because it's use is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment.[/quote] It is only this statement for which I have an issue. We will have to agree to disagree I fear, but thank you for your rational and consistent responses. Edited February 5, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Again. Please read and respond to post 132. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1772386' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:05 PM']That is so horrible. That must have really affected you. I'm truly sorry you had to see this execution. -Katie[/quote] It obviously changed forever my view on capital punishment. I had helped with death penalty appeals, which was why I was there in the first place, but after that, I really understood why John Paul took the time to send letters to governors for every scheduled execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772420' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:28 PM']Again if someone else wants to bother with answering they can.[/quote] I already have, I addressed it in post 132. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1772437' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:41 PM']It obviously changed forever my view on capital punishment. I had helped with death penalty appeals, which was why I was there in the first place, but after that, I really understood why John Paul took the time to send letters to governors for every scheduled execution.[/quote] God bless you for doing that. I really respect JPII for speaking out against the death penalty. Have you ever seen the movie "Dancer in the Dark?" It's a Lars von Trier movie with Bjork in it about the death penalty, and is very, very disturbing. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Veridicus' post='1772428' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:34 PM']It is only this statement for which I have an issue. We will have to agree to disagree I fear, but thank you for your rational and consistent responses.[/quote] You disagree that it is in fact a universal right of the civil authorities, or that it is paramount obedience to this Commandment? Because the Catechism of The Council of Trent makes it clear both are true. [quote]Execution Of Criminals Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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