Abortion: "it Is My Body, I Don't Have To Use It For The Baby

[Nihil Obstat]

How strange. It's almost like a parody of the pro abortion debate.
Except you're serious.
Are there any cliqué arguments you haven't touched on yet?

[dairygirl4u2c]

a terrible life that the baby will lead is irrelvant, at least 99% of the time. (probably always but for the sake of argument)
maybe it could be debatable, maybe, that the tortured cells/babies who will live lives of physical pain for a short period etc, could be aborted, but that's like 0.0001 percent of the time, and so irrelvant for most intents and purposes of this debate

you cannot shoot someone just cause you think they have a terrible life or will have one.

most people who hae these 'terrible lives' would not want death, either, by far most of them.

like most abortion arguers, he's got no leg to stand on. he's gonna find another argument, which will be just as bad, or varing shades of bad. and then he's eventually going to hae to overcome his pride, cause it's the only thing standing in the way of change. and maybe grow a moral backbone after he lets it sink in that hte's advocating allowing unjustifiable killing, murder.
if he's like most prochoice people, that is.

Edited February 7, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1773854' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:59 PM']The child also does not know about happiness, beauty, love, forgiveness, family, friends, music, learning, excitement, grace, etc. - should we deny the child these things simply because he or she is going to be born into a broken home?[/quote]
Exactly!

[quote name='alixr' post='1773863' date='Feb 6 2009, 05:12 PM']Some children born into broken homes are never able to experience many of these things.[/quote]
Some, perhaps, but not all. I had foster brothers who were physically, verbally, and sexually abused and neglected. While that part of their life was horrible, they had each other, and had/have great love for each other. So yes, they have still experienced love. Thankfully they were taken out of the abusive situation, and I know not all are that lucky, but they still have a life worth living, given the chance.

And not all abused children or children from broken homes end up with psychological problems or continue the abuse. Yes there is a greater tendency, but it isn't set in stone. Even so, there is always the possibility of overcoming that through therapy, prayer, healing.

[quote name='alixr' post='1773878' date='Feb 6 2009, 05:34 PM']I actually do think it was quite possibly irresponsible of my parents to give me life; the point is that a child who comes into the world already unwanted by its parents, who are also too selfish to give the child up for adoption and who are unable to provide quality care for the child, that child is set up to suffer. I just don't believe it is better to bring the child into an environment that will probably turn him into a person with psychological problems that may even develop into a tendency to cause deliberate suffering in others as a result of the lack of empathy and love the child got growing up. I believe it is far better to abort the child before it is developped enough to feel anything. Once the child is here, not part of the woman's body anymore, then no, there should be no "mercy killings." And I won't even go into the existentialism of whether or not we should mercy kill everyone so no one would exist, or why we exist in the first place, but there are worse things than death . . . .[/quote]
The child in the mother's womb is not part of her body. She or he may be attached to her body, living within her body, but his or her skin is not the mother's skin, his or her blood is not the mother's blood (my son and I have different blood types), his or her heart is not the mother's heart (by the way, the heart beats at 5 weeks, which is actually only 3 weeks gestation; few women know they are pregnant that early). The child is unique from the moment of fertilisation.

[quote name='MStar' post='1774052' date='Feb 6 2009, 08:41 PM']It seems to me that one of alixr's main threads of thought is that [i]if [/i] a person may not desire life, then they shouldn't be burdened with it. Obviously this is a problem when it comes to a pregnant mother. If the mother really thinks that the child would be born to a rotten life, then it is her duty to put it up for adoption so it can have the chance to live a happy life. I don't care if she doesn't want another family to care for the child, the argument that humans can be selfish does not make abortion ok. If we started saying things were okay because the human acted out of selfishness, we'd have major problems.

Another point that goes with this idea of a person being "spared from a rotten life" - let's say the child will more likely than not be born with some terrible malady, like CatherineM's son. We cannot say that that person shouldn't get a stab at living, for they may turn out wonderfully.

The other point I'd like to make: If a person thinks it would be better for them to not exist than to go on living, then they don't know the value of life, even their own life. This makes me so very sad, for it means they do not love themselves, and so they cannot very well love God, and without love then of course life would be miserable. It is the duty of Christians to make sure that everyone hears of God's Love - this is the Good News after all - and when people commit suicide or do horrendous things it means that we Christians need to try harder to show God's Love. We don't just say, "wow, I guess that person who committed suicide was miserable, good thing they ended their life so they're not so miserable anymore." No, when that happens it means that person didn't get the help they needed to see why life was worth while, and it should cause us to strive all the harder to let Christ do His work in us. (don't go into suicide and who's responsible and all that though, that's not where I'm trying to go)

Edit: Ha, CatherineM, you state it so much more simply than I did Sweet![/quote]

[rkwright]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1774521' date='Feb 7 2009, 02:39 AM']a terrible life that the baby will lead is irrelvant, at least 99% of the time. (probably always but for the sake of argument)
maybe it could be debatable, maybe, that the tortured cells/babies who will live lives of physical pain for a short period etc, could be aborted, but that's like 0.0001 percent of the time, and so irrelvant for most intents and purposes of this debate

you cannot shoot someone just cause you think they have a terrible life or will have one.

most people who hae these 'terrible lives' would not want death, either, by far most of them.

like most abortion arguers, he's got no leg to stand on. he's gonna find another argument, which will be just as bad, or varing shades of bad. and then he's eventually going to hae to overcome his pride, cause it's the only thing standing in the way of change. and maybe grow a moral backbone after he lets it sink in that hte's advocating allowing unjustifiable killing, murder.
if he's like most prochoice people, that is.[/quote]

dairy haven't seen you around in a while...

Good post I have to agree with everything you said.

[Monoxide]

I thought I'd add...

Most of this talk supposes what many of those who support abortion attack. Simply that a fetus is human. It is the crux of their argument, simply because it is soft and easy to dodge.

Objectively before a month the fetus is virtually unrecognizable as human.

Most abortion folk don't support abortion in the second and third trimesters, but are detached when they do not recognize it as human.

Those that do support third trimester abortion seem to only do so to make an obnoxious point that even they are not aware of the consequences.

So what arguments do we have against abortion at this stage?

[b]Reduction [/b](is it human the day before it is born, no? The day before? No? the day before)is tempting, but denied simply because it is too easy for the pro-lifer, and that, despite reduction, there is an objectual difference between a 2 week old and 3 month old fetii. So it is a type of closed slippery slope.

[b]Momentum / Potential[/b] from the other end, the fetus is thing with predictable growth and a knowable end. It possess the complete potential of being a creature capable of producing complex machinery (my fetish du jour)

anyway studies call

[Deb]

[quote name='Monoxide' post='1774938' date='Feb 7 2009, 12:55 PM']I thought I'd add...

Most of this talk supposes what many of those who support abortion attack. Simply that a fetus is human. It is the crux of their argument, simply because it is soft and easy to dodge.

Objectively before a month the fetus is virtually unrecognizable as human.

Most abortion folk don't support abortion in the second and third trimesters, but are detached when they do not recognize it as human.

Those that do support third trimester abortion seem to only do so to make an obnoxious point that even they are not aware of the consequences.

So what arguments do we have against abortion at this stage?

[b]Reduction [/b](is it human the day before it is born, no? The day before? No? the day before)is tempting, but denied simply because it is too easy for the pro-lifer, and that, despite reduction, there is an objectual difference between a 2 week old and 3 month old fetii. So it is a type of closed slippery slope.

[b]Momentum / Potential[/b] from the other end, the fetus is thing with predictable growth and a knowable end. It possess the complete potential of being a creature capable of producing complex machinery (my fetish du jour)

anyway studies call[/quote]

The reality is that when fertilization takes place, the genetic composition of a preborn human is formed. Any scientist will tell you that life has been created and that it is human. To deny this and state it is just a clump of cells or nonviable or whatever other brainwashing terms are used to convince people to murder the unborn, is just that, brainwashing.

Four weeks after fertilization, a heart is beating. A HUMAN heart is beating. To willingly and purposely stop this heart from beating is and always will be murder. To give anyone a free choice to murder is against the natural and moral laws of God and a price will be paid by everyone who is involved in it.

The lame excuses to justify abortion go on and on and on. The evil one has never enjoyed himself more than when he was able to convince what used to be intelligient people that murdering the creation of God before birth was a 'choice."
There are people who say that the child is not viable therefore is not a baby and therefore can be killed. You can bring your baby home from the hospital and put it in a crib and then ignore it for a month and guess what folks? It will die. It is not viable on its own.

What has happened in the societies of the world is that so many have turned their faces from God that the most horrifying acts a person can think of slowly become normal as more and more are brainwashed into accepting them. Those who say that they wouldn't have an abortion, but think that should be a personal choice for each person is saying they think that murder is acceptable, just not something they would not do themselves.

There are so many men and women who spend their lives running from their involvement in abortion. They are wounded beyond all measure. Every woman knows in her very soul that when she rips a living being from her body, for her own convenience, that she has killed her own child. She will try to bury it, but it will return. There is a reason so many women between the ages of 30 and 60 are on anti-depressants, committ suicide, never have children, never have a long lasting relationship, see psychologists on a regular basis. If you look into the majority of their pasts, you will find the abortion. Men too suffer the wounds of murder.

We can only pray for those hurt by abortion, that they will confess to God, repent and be reconciled with Him. Pray for all the souls who never saw the light of day and for the conversion of those who have turned so far from God that they can actually get themselves to argue that murdering an unborn child is a good thing to do. Think about that statement. Murdering an unborn child is a good thing to do. The offenses against God, in such great numbers and of such magnitude will not go unpunished.

[Didacus]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773862' date='Feb 6 2009, 01:08 PM']I find it naive for anyone to say that no one ever regretted living, despite their miseries. Surely people who commit suicide have regretted living. Not only that, but a child who suffers and is abused/neglected during childhood has the potential for growing up with mental instabilities which might end up causing them to inflict harm on others later on in life. The cycle of abuse continues. That life is always worth living is an opinion. Of course you would be charged with murder if you killed homeless people; it is their decision to end or not end their lives. Which brings a gray area to the abortion issue because a baby cannot ask to be born or not to be born. But I find it irresponsible to bring one into the world that you are unwilling/unable to care for. Other people may be able to care for the child, but then again they may not. You risk making the child an even bigger victim by being physically/emotionally abandoned in life.[/quote]

No, you are in logical error.

Even those who commit suicide, given the choice, would relieve their miseries rather than end their lives. Suicide is simply the means by which to end their miseries.


The anwser to 'a child may be neglected' is to take the time, and invest ourselves in a loving way to make certain the child is NOT neglected, or abused, or in general that the child will have a fair chance in life. The merciful anwser is NOT; I don't want to bother, and I don't trust anyone else to bother, so lets just get rid of him or her.


It is a coward who says that out of mercy I will ensure a child shall not suffer by ending his or her life.

[Didacus]

[quote]The child also does not know about happiness, beauty, love, forgiveness, family, friends, music, learning, excitement, grace, etc. - should we deny the child these things simply because he or she is going to be born into a broken home?[/quote]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773863' date='Feb 6 2009, 01:12 PM']Some children born into broken homes are never able to experience many of these things.[/quote]

Can you guarantee that the child will not experience any of these things? Can you guarantee that the child will suffer unspeakable horrors?


On the off-chance that the child will suffer, lets decide in lieu of the child and destroy him or her.
That's pretty shallow by my book.

[Didacus]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773878' date='Feb 6 2009, 01:34 PM']I actually do think it was quite possibly irresponsible of my parents to give me life; the point is that a child who comes into the world already unwanted by its parents, who are also too selfish to give the child up for adoption and who are unable to provide quality care for the child, that child is set up to suffer. I just don't believe it is better to bring the child into an environment that will probably turn him into a person with psychological problems that may even develop into a tendency to cause deliberate suffering in others as a result of the lack of empathy and love the child got growing up. I believe it is far better to abort the child before it is developped enough to feel anything. Once the child is here, not part of the woman's body anymore, then no, there should be no "mercy killings." And I won't even go into the existentialism of whether or not we should mercy kill everyone so no one would exist, or why we exist in the first place, but there are worse things than death . . . .[/quote]


What if I told you a true story about a child who lost his mother at the age of 4, his older brother t the age of 12, has his nation torn apart by war in his teen years, his father die during that period of time, almost killed during the occupation and suffered greatly throughout it all (starved, littereally cleaned poo left behind by the german army, say his loved ones suffer day in and day out, dealt with the cold and countless other hardships).

Would you say this man suffered so much in life that his parents were irresponsible in 'giving' him life?

Unselfishly he entered the priesthood and later in life became a pope. Even then he got shot and suffered greatly, but he went on in service to all. To the end of his life he never dared stop working towards to good of everyone, even through his parkinson disease which crippled him in his later years yet he still persisted and lead the entire Church. Should we pity his pains and wish he had never been born? Or should we admire his tenacity, follow his example and endure the hardships of life in devotion and love to others?




Your position is childish and repugnant. Sorry to sound blunt, or maybe insulting, but I truly believe that is exactly what your position, ifgenuinely held, demonstrates.

[Didacus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773895' date='Feb 6 2009, 02:03 PM']It can be irresponsibile to get pregnant, it is murder to kill your child because of the circumstances in your life.[/quote]

Hail!

Good point Cmom. Excellent distinction.

[Didacus]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774016' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:08 PM']The thing about someone else making a decision that the life isn't worth living and forcing a mother into an abortion is that no one should have the right to force you into anything regarding your body. It's your body. This goes back to the abortion issues as well. It is very inspiring to read your examples of triumph over adversity. But there are some out there who believe that their life isn't worth it. Some people would rather not be here (and many commit suicide). Not everyone is lucky enough to find peace; some people never recover from what their childhood was. This is often a key characteristic of serial killers who go on to make others suffer as well.

I'm sure your parents gave you lots of love growing up. Some parents are completely selfish and unwilling to either give love or give the child up to someone who can love them. And the child once again becomes the victim.[/quote]

But that's one of our point - what justification can you give to remove the child's chance at conquering his or her own adversity, my like several have before them, and several will do in the future.

You do not. The child has a right to live, to that one precious chance given by God and to be taken back by God and God alone. The child has the RIGHT to life and taking that chance at conquering adversity regardless of what that adversity may be. Our duty is to help the child, and every child, in conquering this adversity.


If all the money poured into abortions was suddenly poured into fighting poverty; how much miseries would the miseries would deminish in thie world?

[alixr]

I just wanted to briefly reply here that I have been raped. It is a terrible trauma; people have all different ways of recovering from said trauma and no, if you have not been raped yourself you really cannot even begin to understand.


[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1774124' date='Feb 6 2009, 06:08 PM']Women experience great pain and hurt from being raped. They have undergone a terrible trauma, which unless you or I have been raped cannot even begin to understand. We should have nothing but counsel, healing, and compassion for these women.

Abortion is not going to bring about healing and it is not an option anyone with a compassionate heart would give to a woman, and oh so much more a previously raped woman, because of the mental and physical effects of abortion. [u][b]Abortion does not help women.[/b][/u]

Abortion is not a solution to rape and it is certainly not going to alleviate the pain and trauma of the woman. [u]It brings a pain and trauma of its own. [/u] Numbers of women suffer for years and decades after abortion. There are previously raped women I have run into at our local crisis pregnancy center who are taking part in the healing programs there that are not seeking counseling for the rape but for the abortion. In rape, the trauma is "Someone hurt me." In abortion, the trauma is "I hurt and killed someone else: my child." This brings even more grief.

[u]The reality of abortion is that it helps no one.[/u] No one. It does not help young women. It does not help children. It doesn't help society. It just brings pain, grief, and death. Norma McCorvey, Roe of Roe v Wade told me, "When I was working in the abortion clinic I never had a woman leave there and tell me 'thank you for my abortion.'"

The physical effects of abortion and the physiological effects of abortion are terrible, and no person who truly understood abortion and the effects of it on women would ever even think of recommending such a procedure to a woman who has been raped. Never.

EDIT: typos[/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='alixr' post='1778929' date='Feb 11 2009, 04:31 PM']I just wanted to briefly reply here that I have been raped. It is a terrible trauma; people have all different ways of recovering from said trauma and no, if you have not been raped yourself you really cannot even begin to understand.[/quote]

As shocking as it maybe, and as hard it is for me to say it so have I, when I was a child. It is indeed a terrible trauma to deal with for the rest of ones life. Even though I am a man, I still fell to see how being a victim justifies punishing a child with death. The child has done nothing wrong, the child is innocent. The child does not deserve death for the sins of the biological father.

Edited February 11, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Luthien]

Well...

Here is my baby...

[img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2075/109/6/508095598/n508095598_5732646_5753.jpg[/img]

My little one was only 9 weeks old in this picture. His/her head is to the left, and the body is to the right. if you look closely he/she is touching his/her face. You could see the little heartbeat flickering in his/her chest. The ultrasound tech had a hard time getting the heartbeat because the baby was moving around like he/she was doing the cha cha.

All babies look this way at this stage of gestation, which is actually 7 weeks if you go from fertilization.

We have no right to choose whether or not these children should be born or not, regardless how their lives "might" turn out. My husband had a very very rough upbringing, I can't imagine a world without him in it.

When we start decided who lives and who dies, well, thats a world that I truely don't want to be in, that would be my cue to get "off the grid".