Abortion: "it Is My Body, I Don't Have To Use It For The Baby

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774028' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:19 PM']That's what humans do; they always act in the most selfish manner imaginable in one way or another. Even when you are doing good you're doing it because it makes you feel good. And if it makes you feel too bad, you usually stop doing it.[/quote]

What a depressingly sad view of human life.

It also flies in the face of anybody on a diet, being on a treadmill does not make you feel GOOD!

[alixr]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1774024' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:16 PM']Its exclusively "your" body until you start sharing it with someone else.[/quote]


But what if you didn't make that decision; as with rape? That's like saying your house is your house until someone breaks in and decides to force you to share it with them.

[alixr]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1774032' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:23 PM']What a depressingly sad view of human life.

It also flies in the face of anybody on a diet, being on a treadmill does not make you feel GOOD! [/quote]

Ah, but it's GOING to make you feel good in the long run. And it will make you look good which most people find highly desirable.

[alixr]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1774029' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:21 PM']Not true.[/quote]


It's completely true in every instance I can think of.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774034' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:24 PM']But what if you didn't make that decision; as with rape? That's like saying your house is your house until someone breaks in and decides to force you to share it with them.[/quote]

How many other crimes do you solve by murdering the innocent victim?
You don't solve the problem of a rape by murdering the innocent child.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774037' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:25 PM']Ah, but it's GOING to make you feel good in the long run. And it will make you look good which most people find highly desirable.[/quote]
BLaH! my docter tried that line as well, and it didn't work from him either.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774016' date='Feb 6 2009, 02:08 PM']The thing about someone else making a decision that the life isn't worth living and forcing a mother into an abortion is that no one should have the right to force you into anything regarding your body. It's your body. This goes back to the abortion issues as well. It is very inspiring to read your examples of triumph over adversity. But there are some out there who believe that their life isn't worth it. Some people would rather not be here (and many commit suicide). Not everyone is lucky enough to find peace; some people never recover from what their childhood was. This is often a key characteristic of serial killers who go on to make others suffer as well.

I'm sure your parents gave you lots of love growing up. Some parents are completely selfish and unwilling to either give love or give the child up to someone who can love them. And the child once again becomes the victim.[/quote]


The fact that someone doesn't think their life is worth living just shows our failures as Christians to spread the Good News. St. Augustine said, “God can create us without us, but he cannot save us without us.”

[MStar]

It seems to me that one of alixr's main threads of thought is that [i]if [/i] a person may not desire life, then they shouldn't be burdened with it. Obviously this is a problem when it comes to a pregnant mother. If the mother really thinks that the child would be born to a rotten life, then it is her duty to put it up for adoption so it can have the chance to live a happy life. I don't care if she doesn't want another family to care for the child, the argument that humans can be selfish does not make abortion ok. If we started saying things were okay because the human acted out of selfishness, we'd have major problems.

Another point that goes with this idea of a person being "spared from a rotten life" - let's say the child will more likely than not be born with some terrible malady, like CatherineM's son. We cannot say that that person shouldn't get a stab at living, for they may turn out wonderfully.

The other point I'd like to make: If a person thinks it would be better for them to not exist than to go on living, then they don't know the value of life, even their own life. This makes me so very sad, for it means they do not love themselves, and so they cannot very well love God, and without love then of course life would be miserable. It is the duty of Christians to make sure that everyone hears of God's Love - this is the Good News after all - and when people commit suicide or do horrendous things it means that we Christians need to try harder to show God's Love. We don't just say, "wow, I guess that person who committed suicide was miserable, good thing they ended their life so they're not so miserable anymore." No, when that happens it means that person didn't get the help they needed to see why life was worth while, and it should cause us to strive all the harder to let Christ do His work in us. (don't go into suicide and who's responsible and all that though, that's not where I'm trying to go)

Edit: Ha, CatherineM, you state it so much more simply than I did Sweet!

Edited February 6, 2009 by MStar

[HisChildForever]

What a pessimistic thread.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773945' date='Feb 6 2009, 02:44 PM']Sure it won't happen in all cases of abortion but if you outlaw abortion, you leave no room for mothers to get rid of unwanted children they would otherwise treat miserably.[/quote]

It is called [b]adoption. [/b] Contrary to what you seem to think, someone actually [b]wants [/b]that child.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773987' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:42 PM']If you are never born, you don't have anything to recover from. Being dead doesn't require recovery. Hypothetically you are doing evil, but the child is not; surely the child will not be made to suffer in the afterlife for what it's mother did? It will be with God. That is not you getting something good out of doing evil. It's a noble thought that no one is qualified to decide a child's life is not worth living but I don't think it's terribly realistic. We are rewarded by God for suffering but surely we are not punished for not suffering; for not being given the chance to suffer. Who is to say that the child not having the opportunity to live a life of suffering is better than it going directly to be with God?[/quote]

You speak of these women who are sacrificing their eternity by killing their child so that their child doesn't have to suffer.

How many women do you seriously think are doing this?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774016' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:08 PM']The thing about someone else making a decision that the life isn't worth living and forcing a mother into an abortion is that no one should have the right to force you into anything regarding your body. It's your body.[/quote]

So nobody can tell you what to do with your body, but someone can kill you off if they feel like it?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774034' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:24 PM']But what if you didn't make that decision; as with rape? That's like saying your house is your house until someone breaks in and decides to force you to share it with them.[/quote]

Women experience great pain and hurt from being raped. They have undergone a terrible trauma, which unless you or I have been raped cannot even begin to understand. We should have nothing but counsel, healing, and compassion for these women.

Abortion is not going to bring about healing and it is not an option anyone with a compassionate heart would give to a woman, and oh so much more a previously raped woman, because of the mental and physical effects of abortion. [u][b]Abortion does not help women.[/b][/u]

Abortion is not a solution to rape and it is certainly not going to alleviate the pain and trauma of the woman. [u]It brings a pain and trauma of its own. [/u] Numbers of women suffer for years and decades after abortion. There are previously raped women I have run into at our local crisis pregnancy center who are taking part in the healing programs there that are not seeking counseling for the rape but for the abortion. In rape, the trauma is "Someone hurt me." In abortion, the trauma is "I hurt and killed someone else: my child." This brings even more grief.

[u]The reality of abortion is that it helps no one.[/u] No one. It does not help young women. It does not help children. It doesn't help society. It just brings pain, grief, and death. Norma McCorvey, Roe of Roe v Wade told me, "When I was working in the abortion clinic I never had a woman leave there and tell me 'thank you for my abortion.'"

The physical effects of abortion and the physiological effects of abortion are terrible, and no person who truly understood abortion and the effects of it on women would ever even think of recommending such a procedure to a woman who has been raped. Never.

EDIT: typos

Edited February 6, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[Monoxide]

alixr;

I feel from you the typical American-God complex. While Canadian and European pro-choice folks are a hair shy of tolerating abortion for convenience, you my friend are trying to equate it with compassion.

You are taking a leap, claiming that these babies are unwanted.

The innate mother is extremely powerful, and is only knocked out of the primary via mind-altering substances (alcohol, drugs) or extreme mental conditioning (if school aged girls were bombarded with your abortion = compassion = what the good mother would do rhetoric). Chances are, if the child is delivered then it will want to be nurtured. Simple enough, plenty of news stories about induced labour abortions where the mother has a change of heart to demonstrate.

You argue that it is a tragedy and torture to be born in poverty... look up the income gap, think about it for a few minutes and then YOU tell ME that the impoverished shouldn't have children.

Ultimately, they are poor, and if honest, will have few luxuries in our luxury-focused first world. Teaching them that abortion is compassion will be removing any real joy left in their life. This is true torture, the demoralization and subjugation of those of us (or do you claim to be separate from the poor?) who are less fortunate in life.

I will say it again. Building an entitlement complex within those who are unable to afford to life the upper-middle class lifestyle of convenience is true torture.

And lastly, my appeal to emotion: You find me some rational adults who claim that they wish they were aborted, and if it is a significant number, enough to justify any mistaken abortions then perhaps I will assist you in establishing criteria for which social circumstances abortion should be allowable.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Monoxide

[Socrates]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773934' date='Feb 6 2009, 02:31 PM']BUT, it is not considered murder to sacrifice one siamese twin to save the other. So it does sort of hold true. Torture of the innocent is just as wrong as murder.[/quote]
Who here was advocating torture?
You're using a false dilemma argument here.
Murder and torture are both wrong, and obviously one should neither murder nor torture an innocent human being. Because one is against murder of the innocent doesn't mean he is okay with torture, nor vice-versa. You're spouting nonsense here.

And cases in which killing the child is actually necessary to save the life of the mother are so rare (especially with modern medical technology) as to be practically non-existent. It is justified to perform an action which will unintentionally lead to the death of the child in order to save the mother, but that's another debate.
Killing an innocent child because it might adversely affect the [i]health[/i] of the mother is another matter altogether. And even worse is killing a child because it might not grow up in the best circumstances. Many people have overcome bad childhoods to find success and happiness later; birth is not necessarily fate. But even if it were, that would not make murder right.
Murdering an innocent human being for [i]any[/i] reason is wrong.
Our problem as a society is that we now value comfort and freedom from suffering (something nobody is completely free of anyway) over the sanctity of human life itself.
When we are okay with killing an innocent child simply because it's the easy way out, we as a society have lost our soul.
"Quality of life" means nothing if life itself is deemed worthless.