Abortion: "it Is My Body, I Don't Have To Use It For The Baby

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773945' date='Feb 6 2009, 02:44 PM']If you take time to research in detail the kind of things that are often done to unwanted children, then you will have a better idea of why I think that killing an embryo is better than torturing a child who can feel and reason. Sure it won't happen in all cases of abortion but if you outlaw abortion, you leave no room for mothers to get rid of unwanted children they would otherwise treat miserably.[/quote]
I [b]HAD[/b] the childhood from hell, and my husband spent 15 years on the frontlines of CYF cases, my friends are adoption caseworkers, and I took care of unwanted retarded adults so I beaver dam well know what I am talking about, and I most assuredly tell you murder is
NOT an alternative to life.

[alixr]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773952' date='Feb 6 2009, 02:51 PM']I [b]HAD[/b] the childhood from hell, and my husband spent 15 years on the frontlines of CYF cases, my friends are adoption caseworkers, and I took care of unwanted retarded adults so I beaver dam well know what I am talking about, and I most assuredly tell you murder is
NOT an alternative to life.[/quote]


We will have to disagree then. I feel that torture is the greater evil and you feel it is abortion. We seem to be at an impasse. I felt surely that you must have merely not understood the atrocities I was referencing. Clearly, you state that you do understand them. I think we both are advocates of compassion; we just have completely different definitions of it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773960' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:10 PM']We will have to disagree then. I feel that torture is the greater evil and you feel it is abortion. We seem to be at an impasse. I felt surely that you must have merely not understood the atrocities I was referencing. Clearly, you state that you do understand them. I think we both are advocates of compassion; we just have completely different definitions of it.[/quote]

Torture leaves a person at least alive, so it cannot cannot be equated with murder.
Murder is never compassion. You never can alleviate suffering by KILLING the victim.

COMPASSION. Pity at another person's sorrow or misfortune, with the desire to alleviate or, on occasion, even to suffer in the other's stead.

[alixr]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773966' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:16 PM']Torture leaves a person at least alive, so it cannot cannot be equated with murder.
Murder is never compassion. You never can alleviate suffering by KILLING the victim.

COMPASSION. Pity at another person's sorrow or misfortune, with the desire to alleviate or, on occasion, even to suffer in the other's stead.[/quote]


Torture leaves a person alive physically but often dead in another sense. And you actually can alleviate suffering by killing the victim. Just technically, it's possible. If you kill them they are out of pain; their suffering is alleviated. Hupothetically, isn't it the greatest form of suffering in another's stead to have an abortion to spare the suffering of an infant even if it condemns you to punishment for murder?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alixr' post='1773973' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:23 PM']Torture leaves a person alive physically but often dead in another sense. And you actually can alleviate suffering by killing the victim. Just technically, it's possible. If you kill them they are out of pain; their suffering is alleviated. Hupothetically, isn't it the greatest form of suffering in another's stead to have an abortion to spare the suffering of an infant even if it condemns you to punishment for murder?[/quote]
You can recover from torture, you can't recover from being dead.

Never, never , never can you do evil and think a good will come of it.
Murdering a child might be relieving your own suffering, but it isn't doing the child much good is it?
No one is qualified to decide a child's life is not worth living.

[alixr]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773975' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:28 PM']You can recover from torture, you can't recover from being dead.

Never, never , never can you do evil and think a good will come of it.
Murdering a child might be relieving your own suffering, but it isn't doing the child much good is it?
No one is qualified to decide a child's life is not worth living.[/quote]


If you are never born, you don't have anything to recover from. Being dead doesn't require recovery. Hypothetically you are doing evil, but the child is not; surely the child will not be made to suffer in the afterlife for what it's mother did? It will be with God. That is not you getting something good out of doing evil. It's a noble thought that no one is qualified to decide a child's life is not worth living but I don't think it's terribly realistic. We are rewarded by God for suffering but surely we are not punished for not suffering; for not being given the chance to suffer. Who is to say that the child not having the opportunity to live a life of suffering is better than it going directly to be with God?

[CatherineM]

ALIXR -I was scheduled to be terminated by abortion. My parents were both over 40, my mother was in very poor health, and was told carrying a child to term would kill her. Catholic hospital, Catholic doctor over a decade before Roe vs. Wade, so they were obviously very serious. As she was being wheeled into pre-op, she felt me kick, and refused the procedure. She's going to be 87 this year, so I guess the doctors were wrong about both of us.

My parents hadn't wanted or expected another child. We were very poor, and my childhood was very difficult, but I wouldn't say that I didn't want to be born.

I raised two foster sons. The oldest boy's mother had been exposed to benzine at work before discovering she was pregnant. She also scheduled an abortion because the doctor said the baby would be deformed. She also changed her mind. He had lots of learning difficulties, socialization problems, and also a very tough childhood. He eventually made Eagle Scout, went into the US Navy, and made Petty Officer by the time he was 19. He lives a very happy life now back in St. Pete. I'm so glad that someone didn't make the decision that his life wasn't worth living.

My life was and is worth living, no matter how difficult it is. The important point here is that it is MY life. No one has the right to tell me that my life isn't worth living. When you place the decision into a human's hand rather than God's, mistakes can be made. Do you really think you are capable of deciding who has the right to live? If you are for choice, then what happens when someone decides that a baby will have a bad life, and forces a woman into an abortion? What happens to your view that abortion is a woman's choice? If you don't think that can happen, look at China, look at Nazi Germany. I don't think we need to use either as a guide for right living.

Edited February 6, 2009 by CatherineM

[alixr]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1773999' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:56 PM']ALIXR -I was scheduled to be terminated by abortion. My parents were both over 40, my mother was in very poor health, and was told carrying a child to term would kill her. Catholic hospital, Catholic doctor over a decade before Roe vs. Wade, so they were obviously very serious. As she was being wheeled into pre-op, she felt me kick, and refused the procedure. She's going to be 87 this year, so I guess the doctors were wrong about both of us.

My parents hadn't wanted or expected another child. We were very poor, and my childhood was very difficult, but I wouldn't say that I didn't want to be born.

I raised two foster sons. The oldest boy's mother had been exposed to benzine at work before discovering she was pregnant. She also scheduled an abortion because the doctor said the baby would be deformed. She also changed her mind. He had lots of learning difficulties, socialization problems, and also a very touch childhood. He eventually made Eagle Scout, went into the US Navy, and made Petty Officer by the time he was 19. He lives a very happy life now back in St. Pete. I'm so glad that someone didn't make the decision that his life wasn't worth living.

My life was and is worth living, no matter how difficult it is. The important point here is that it is MY life. No one has the right to tell me that my life isn't worth living. When you place the decision into a human's hand rather than God's, mistakes can be made. Do you really think you are capable of deciding who has the right to live? If you are for choice, then what happens when someone decides that a baby will have a bad life, and forces a woman into an abortion? What happens to your view that abortion is a woman's choice? If you don't think that can happen, look at China, look at Nazi Germany. I don't think we need to use either as a guide for right living.[/quote]

The thing about someone else making a decision that the life isn't worth living and forcing a mother into an abortion is that no one should have the right to force you into anything regarding your body. It's your body. This goes back to the abortion issues as well. It is very inspiring to read your examples of triumph over adversity. But there are some out there who believe that their life isn't worth it. Some people would rather not be here (and many commit suicide). Not everyone is lucky enough to find peace; some people never recover from what their childhood was. This is often a key characteristic of serial killers who go on to make others suffer as well.

I'm sure your parents gave you lots of love growing up. Some parents are completely selfish and unwilling to either give love or give the child up to someone who can love them. And the child once again becomes the victim.

[rkwright]

When society loses sight of the fact that murder is wrong, it is no longer a civilized society. It simply becomes people acting in the most selfish manner imaginable. It becomes hell on earth.

Edited February 6, 2009 by rkwright

[rkwright]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774016' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:08 PM']The thing about someone else making a decision that the life isn't worth living and forcing a mother into an abortion is that no one should have the right to force you into anything regarding your body. It's your body. This goes back to the abortion issues as well. It is very inspiring to read your examples of triumph over adversity. But there are some out there who believe that their life isn't worth it. Some people would rather not be here (and many commit suicide). Not everyone is lucky enough to find peace; some people never recover from what their childhood was. This is often a key characteristic of serial killers who go on to make others suffer as well.

I'm sure your parents gave you lots of love growing up. Some parents are completely selfish and unwilling to either give love or give the child up to someone who can love them. And the child once again becomes the victim.[/quote]

None of these reasons give you the right to kill someone else. You don't have that right - just as you said "its their body" - including the baby.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774016' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:08 PM']The thing about someone else making a decision that the life isn't worth living and forcing a mother into an abortion is that no one should have the right to force you into anything regarding your body. It's your body. This goes back to the abortion issues as well. It is very inspiring to read your examples of triumph over adversity. But there are some out there who believe that their life isn't worth it. Some people would rather not be here (and many commit suicide). Not everyone is lucky enough to find peace; some people never recover from what their childhood was. This is often a key characteristic of serial killers who go on to make others suffer as well.

I'm sure your parents gave you lots of love growing up. Some parents are completely selfish and unwilling to either give love or give the child up to someone who can love them. And the child once again becomes the victim.[/quote]
Its exclusively "your" body until you start sharing it with someone else.

[dominicansoul]

alixr, your thoughts display an attitude and a mindset of millions, the consequence of the contraceptive mentality our Pope Paul VI spoke of back in the 1960's.

your arguments leave no room for the chance for agape love. do you know what agape love is? it is the love God has for you, it is what makes this life worth living for...even if a child is born into an unloving family, that child isn't excluded from the love of God...

you make it sound like every aborted fetus had no right to live...you are a victim of this contraceptive mentality...these are the same ideas that swam through hitler's head as well...who are you to make the choice whether a human being should live or die? Under no circumstance does a human being find itself without his own right to life...

Edited February 6, 2009 by dominicansoul

[alixr]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1774020' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:11 PM']When society loses sight of the fact that murder is wrong, it is no longer a civilized society. It simply becomes people acting in the most selfish manner imaginable. It becomes hell on earth.[/quote]


That's what humans do; they always act in the most selfish manner imaginable in one way or another. Even when you are doing good you're doing it because it makes you feel good. And if it makes you feel too bad, you usually stop doing it.

[rkwright]

[quote name='alixr' post='1774028' date='Feb 6 2009, 03:19 PM']That's what humans do; they always act in the most selfish manner imaginable in one way or another. Even when you are doing good you're doing it because it makes you feel good. And if it makes you feel too bad, you usually stop doing it.[/quote]

Not true.

[alixr]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1774021' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:12 PM']None of these reasons give you the right to kill someone else. You don't have that right - just as you said "its their body" - including the baby.[/quote]


Which brings us again to the debate of whether mother's should be forced to have babies that might end up killing them in the process. It's the mother's body, it's the child's body. But a hard choice is going to have to be made and it can't be automatically assumed that the child's body is the more valuable of the two.