Sspx: Jews Are 'our Elder Brothers

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771619' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:05 PM']I am cupable for getting off topic along with you (though you brought it up), but I do believe the point of this debate was the SSPX...I do apologize to all for getting completely off topic.-Katie[/quote]
Yes, and the argument developed naturally into one about the difference between anti-Semitism and the legitimate and necessary rejection by Catholics of the theological claims of Rabbinic Judaism (and by extension Islam). I thought you had been following the development of the argument, but I apologize, because clearly I was mistaken.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771460' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:26 PM']The Father and Son are one (along with the Holy Spirit of course). Islam does not properly understand the Trinitarian nature of God, but, in my opinion, acknowledging the God of the old Testament/Abrahamic God, they are worshipping the same God as us, though not in a complete way. -Katie[/quote]

It is not that they do not [i]properly understand[/i] the Trinitarian nature of God, they outright reject it. And outright reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. And yes it was my main point that the Father and Son are ONE, Jesus Christ is fully God. Islam rejects Christ as God, they therefor reject God. It is not really possible to believe in God and to reject God.

[i]People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth:[b] the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, [u]was nothing more[/u] than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity[/b]' - stop, that is better for you - God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. (Qur'an 4:171, M. A. S. Abdel-Haleem translation)[/i]

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1771623' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:08 AM']It is not that they do not [i]properly understand[/i] the Trinitarian nature of God, they outright reject it. And outright reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. And yes it was my main point that the Father and Son are ONE, Jesus Christ is fully God. Islam rejects Christ as God, they therefor reject God. It is not really possible to believe in God and to reject God.

[i]People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth:[b] the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, [u]was nothing more[/u] than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity[/b]' - stop, that is better for you - God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. (Qur'an 4:171, M. A. S. Abdel-Haleem translation)[/i][/quote]

You're free to believe what you want, but I see it as an error in viewing the nature of God, not a complete diversion from the God of Abraham. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771625' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:10 PM']You're free to believe what you want, but I see it as an error in viewing the nature of God, not a complete diversion from the God of Abraham. -Katie[/quote]
Katie,

Let me be blunt: to reject the Holy Trinity is to reject the God of Abraham. Anyone who makes a distinction of the type you are asserting has been condemned in the document [i]De Synodis[/i] (St. Athanasios) and by the [i]Hagioretic Tome[/i].

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771227' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:42 PM']That is not what the catechism actually says.

841:The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

The exact word is important: the catechism uses the word term "profess". Muslims profess they hold the faith of Abraham, but we know that their definition of God is not the God of the Jews or Christians, and is NOT a merciful God. He does NOT create evil.[/quote]
Actually it is a conjunction ("and") offering two propositions
1-That Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham
2-together with "us" adore that God

The God of Islam is not mercyful? The Qur'an and all Muslims I know of think so. Besides the numerous statments of this within the text (oft forgiving), every Surah with the exception of (I think) 8 or 9 beings "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most mercyful"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1771627' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:12 PM']Actually it is a conjunction ("and") offering two propositions
1-That Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham
2-together with "us" adore that God

The God of Islam is not mercyful? The Qur'an and all Muslims I know of think so. Besides the numerous statments of this within the text (oft forgiving), every Surah with the exception of (I think) 8 or 9 beings "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most mercyful"[/quote]
Even if the bishops of Vatican II asserted that Muslims worship the true God, by definition such a statement falls outside of their competence. Thus, it has no real value.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771626' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:11 AM']Katie,

Let me be blunt: to reject the Holy Trinity is to reject the God of Abraham. Anyone who makes a distinction of the type you are asserting has been condemned in the document [i]De Synodis[/i] (St. Athanasios) and by the [i]Hagioretic Tome[/i].[/quote]


Are the Bishops and Pope behind Lumen Gentium condemned the same?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771628' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:14 AM']Even if the bishops of Vatican II asserted that Muslims worship the true God, by definition such a statement falls outside of their competence. Thus, it has no real value.[/quote]


If only the Bishops and Pope knew as much as you?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1771629' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:14 PM']Are the Bishops and Pope behind Lumen Gentium condemned the same?[/quote]
If they intended their comments to be taken "dogmatically" then, yes, they would be condemned, for they would have fallen into heresy, but Vatican II decreed no new dogmas.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771625' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:10 AM']You're free to believe what you want, but I see it as an error in viewing the nature of God, not a complete diversion from the God of Abraham. -Katie[/quote]

Okey dokey, but as a matter of fact one can not worship the True God if they do not worship Jesus Christ.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1771631' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:15 PM']If only the Bishops and Pope knew as much as you?[/quote]
I am sure that they were all quite bright, but it would have been nice if they had avoided making politically correct and vacuous comments that happen to contradict earlier conciliar decrees of the Church during the first millennium.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771594' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:47 PM']I thought the OT was part of Muslim tradition, as I thought the beginning of Islam was Mohammed's Mission to "reform" Christians and Jews. -Katie[/quote]


That is a complicated question.

[Apotheoun]

Can the Pope or an ecumenical council dogmatically define who Muslims worship?

No, because that topic is not a part of divine revelation.

[Apotheoun]

Can the Pope decree that the Hindu triad of gods (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) is the Holy Trinity revealed in sacred scripture?

No, because who Hindus worship is not a divinely revealed truth of Christian faith. No Christian would ever be bound by such a decree (if a pope were imprudent enough to issue such a thing), and in fact a Christian would be duty bound to dissent from a false teaching of that kind.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

To be honest I expect theological indifferentism from Hassan, because he is not a Catholic, but I am rather disappointed when I see it in someone who claims to be a follower of Christ.