Sspx: Jews Are 'our Elder Brothers

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770919' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:41 AM']That may be, yet I must admit that I am not only concerned about their comments regarding the Jews on issues unrelated to theology, but I am also concerned by your comments which imply that you have embraced theological indifferentism on questions relating to Judaism and Islam.[/quote]

Apotheoun, I know that you are concerned about my "theological indifferentism"-you are free to disagree with me and with the Catechism's statements that we share the God of Abraham with the Jews and Muslims, but I am obviously not disobeying what the Roman Catholic Church says if I'm saying something that is in the CCC. -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1770923' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:43 AM']Jesus is the salvation of the world. What may we say about the jews then, besides the fact they must convert to be saved?[/quote]

This is what I was told-I'm not sure if it's 100% though:
Jesus is the salvation of everyone-as in, everyone is already saved by His redemptive suffering and death. Accepting the grace, having faith in Jesus, justified by our works our "ticket to Heaven" so to speak. This is not to say that God cannot bring others into Heaven, God is free to act outside of the normal means He has established. -Katie

[Winchester]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770348' date='Feb 2 2009, 10:24 PM']Can we clarify what a heresy is? I thought a person had to first be a baptized Catholic and refused to be corrected in order to be a heretic, which wouldn't apply to intrinsically non Christian religions. -Katie[/quote]
Islam was included [i]The Great Heresies[/i] by Belloc. I agree.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771095' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:32 AM']Apotheoun, I know that you are concerned about my "theological indifferentism"-you are free to disagree with me and with the Catechism's statements that we share the God of Abraham with the Jews and Muslims, but I am obviously not disobeying what the Roman Catholic Church says if I'm saying something that is in the CCC. -Katie[/quote]
The Catechism's comments, which are merely quotes from Vatican II, do not represent anything more than the subjective opinions of the bishops at the council. Moreover, who Muslims worship is not a part of divine revelation and therefore the statements issued at Vatican II cannot have binding authority, because the Magisterium is not competent to determine who Muslims worship.

The false "god" of Islam, which evidently is your "god" too, creates and causes evil, and the God-inspired Fathers of the Church declared that proposition to be heretical. Now, if there are Catholics who wish to take the imprudent comments found in a few Vatican II documents as definitive teaching, which is impossible since that would mean that the bishops of the council had embraced heresy, that is up to them, but I refuse to take politically correct comments (no matter where they are found) as [i]de fide[/i] teaching.

Muslims do not worship the true God, and to say that they do is to fall into error, and, depending on the case, heresy.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1771106' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:38 AM']Islam was included [i]The Great Heresies[/i] by Belloc. I agree.[/quote]
Rabbinic Judaism is a heresy, while Islam is merely a false religion.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771104' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:36 AM']This is what I was told-I'm not sure if it's 100% though:
Jesus is the salvation of everyone-as in, everyone is already saved by His redemptive suffering and death. Accepting the grace, having faith in Jesus, justified by our works our "ticket to Heaven" so to speak. This is not to say that God cannot bring others into Heaven, God is free to act outside of the normal means He has established. -Katie[/quote]
I agree that God can give grace outside of the sacraments, but the grace given still flows out from Christ through His Church. That said, if a Muslim or a Hindu is saved, or a person from any other religion for that matter, it is not because of their affiliation with a false religion, but in spite of it that they are saved.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771188' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:20 PM']Rabbinic Judaism is a heresy, while Islam is merely a false religion.[/quote]
Ok, why isn't islam a heresy? They don't believe in the God of Christianity.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771213' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:30 PM']Ok, why isn't islam a heresy? They don't believe in the God of Christianity.[/quote]
It does not have any valid prophets or revelation. In other words, to put it simply, it is a non-Christian religion, while Rabbinic Judaism -- like Arianism, Docetism, etc. -- is a distortion of the revealed truth given by God in the Old and New Testaments, and within the inspired Dominical Tradition of the Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771095' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:32 PM']Apotheoun, I know that you are concerned about my "theological indifferentism"-you are free to disagree with me and with the Catechism's statements that we share the God of Abraham with the Jews and Muslims, but I am obviously not disobeying what the Roman Catholic Church says if I'm saying something that is in the CCC. -Katie[/quote]
That is not what the catechism actually says.

841:The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

The exact word is important: the catechism uses the word term "profess". Muslims profess they hold the faith of Abraham, but we know that their definition of God is not the God of the Jews or Christians, and is NOT a merciful God. He does NOT create evil.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771183' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:18 PM']The Catechism's comments, which are merely quotes from Vatican II, do not represent anything more than the subjective opinions of the bishops at the council. Moreover, who Muslims worship is not a part of divine revelation and therefore the statements issued at Vatican II cannot have binding authority, because the Magisterium is not competent to determine who Muslims worship.

The false "god" of Islam, which evidently is your "god" too, creates and causes evil, and the God-inspired Fathers of the Church declared that proposition to be heretical. Now, if there are Catholics who wish to take the imprudent comments found in a few Vatican II documents as definitive teaching, which is impossible since that would mean that the bishops of the council had embraced heresy, that is up to them, but I refuse to take politically correct comments (no matter where they are found) as [i]de fide[/i] teaching.

Muslims do not worship the true God, and to say that they do is to fall into error, and, depending on the case, heresy.[/quote]

A) I never said the Catechism's view on this (which is post Vatican II, correct) has "binding authority", but I obviously choice to believe this is allowed to Roman Catholics. There are many things that are not definitive teaching, but that does not mean we can't accept them.

B) I have explained to you many times that I do not believe everything the Muslims believe [i]about [/i]God-I believe their understanding is, in many cases, erroneous. If you and I are looking at the same blue sky, you say it is blue and I say it is grey, this doesn't change the fact that a)the sky IS blue b)I am wrong c)we are both looking at the same sky.

C) You are completely entitled to your opinion-you are free to believe whatever you want about these statements and about me. -Katie

Edited February 3, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Tinkerlina]

[ That said, if a Muslim or a Hindu is saved, or a person from any other religion for that matter, it is not because of their affiliation with a false religion, but in spite of it that they are saved.
[/quote]

I'm not disputing that. -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771227' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:42 PM']That is not what the catechism actually says.

841:The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

The exact word is important: the catechism uses the word term "profess". Muslims profess they hold the faith of Abraham, but we know that their definition of God is not the God of the Jews or Christians, and is NOT a merciful God. He does NOT create evil.[/quote]

I agree that God doesn't cause evil, however, the teaching of Islam, as I understand it, is that Allah may bring about "evil" but it has future good effects that we are incapable of seeing. I think our understanding is that God "allows" evil, not creates it, therefore the Islamic understanding is wrong, however, I don't think it is saying that God has an evil nature. -Katie

[Paddington]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771227' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:42 PM']That is not what the catechism actually says.

841:The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

The exact word is important: the catechism uses the word term "profess". Muslims profess they hold the faith of Abraham, but we know that their definition of God is not the God of the Jews or Christians, and is NOT a merciful God. He does NOT create evil.[/quote]

"Profess" is weak, but "together with us they adore the one..." is very strong.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1771259' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:22 PM']"Profess" is weak, but "together with us they adore the one..." is very strong.[/quote]

I agree. My understanding is that the Church cannot definitively say that Muslims do or do not worship the same God as we do. That said, the Catechism does state that "together with us they adore the one God" and I don't think I'm disobeying anything by agreeing with that statement, even if others hold contrary opinions and chose to believe that Muslims do not worship the same God as we do (who would also not be disobeying any Church teaching). -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1771259' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:22 PM']"Profess" is weak, but "together with us they adore the one..." is very strong.[/quote]
Muslims profess, that is, they say that they worship the one true God, but what they profess to do and what is actually being done do not by definition coincide.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun