Entering Synagogues, Praying With Non-christians, Etc.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771091' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:27 PM']Which Church Fathers said, infallibly, that we are not to pray with people of other faiths? -Katie[/quote]
Back then the only other people would have been heretics or pagans, and we certainly cannot pray with them.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1771086' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:23 AM']Apo,

Should I assume that you don't want non-Catholics to attend Mass?

Paddington[/quote]
The Churches of both East and West have allowed (at least since the 3rd century) non-Christians to attend the divine liturgy, at least during what the Roman Church calls the "liturgy of the Word", but normally required such individuals to leave prior to the Anaphora.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771187' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:20 PM']I agree. I have attended only for weddings of non-catholics, funerals, and with the Scouts.[/quote]
Seems like a good policy. When I first converted, I would still attend my parents' Methodist services with them on occasion, but I saw that it just confused my mother (I don't know about my dad, since he doesn't talk all that much), so that she thought I agreed with what their church taught. So I don't go with them now, though they sometimes come to Mass with me if they're in (they didn't used to do so).

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771190' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:21 PM']Back then the only other people would have been heretics or pagans, and we certainly cannot pray with them.[/quote]

When I say pray with, I don't mean "worship with"-I mean like how Mother Theresa used to pray with Hindus-she would say "You pray your way, I'll pray mine, we'll pray together." I don't see what's wrong here as long as we are not offering worship to a different God. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771091' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:27 AM']Which Church Fathers said, infallibly, that we are not to pray with people of other faiths? -Katie[/quote]
It is the Patristic Tradition and not individual Fathers that is infallible, and that tradition can be found in their writings, but also in the collections of canons made by the authority of the Patriarchs over the course of the centuries.

The condemnations of those who pray with pagans and heretics can be found in a book called the Pedalion (a compilation of canons from all the local and ecumenical councils of the Church). Below are two of the canons, I don't have my copy of the text at work, but I found these two canons online:

Apostolic Canon 45: [i]Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he has permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed.[/i]

Apostolic Canon 65: [i]If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.[/i]

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771244' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:58 PM']It is the Patristic Tradition and not individual Fathers that is infallible, and that tradition can be found in their writings, but also in the collections of canons made by the authority of the Patriarchs over the course of the centuries.

The condemnations of those who pray with pagans and heretics can be found in a book called the Pedalion (a compilation of canons from all the local and ecumenical councils of the Church). Below are two of the canons, I don't have my copy of the text at work, but I found these two canons online:

Apostolic Canon 45: [i]Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he has permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed.[/i]

Apostolic Canon 65: [i]If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.[/i][/quote]

Could this have been referring to specific cultural issues of the time? Also, could what they mean by" pray with" be different from our understanding? I mean, like someone else pointed out, both Popes Benedict XVI and JPII have prayed with people of other faiths and whether you think it's a good idea or not, Vatican II does allow it. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771241' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:55 PM']When I say pray with, I don't mean "worship with"-I mean like how Mother Theresa used to pray with Hindus-she would say "You pray your way, I'll pray mine, we'll pray together." I don't see what's wrong here as long as we are not offering worship to a different God. -Katie[/quote]
The ancient Church forbade Christians [b]from[/b] both worshiping and praying with heretics and pagans.

Nevertheless, the Fathers held that Christians are duty bound to pray [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771258' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:22 PM']The ancient Church forbade Christians [b]from[/b] both worshiping and praying with heretics and pagans.

Nevertheless, the Fathers held that Christians are duty bound to pray [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans.[/quote]

The ancient Church also forbade men from cutting their hair and women from not covering their heads at Church, customs which change. I'm assuming this was a custom as clergy have prayed with other faiths...-Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771283' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:41 PM']The ancient Church also forbade men from cutting their hair and women from not covering their heads at Church, customs which change. I'm assuming this was a custom as clergy have prayed with other faiths...-Katie[/quote]
The ancient Church never forbade men from cutting their hair, unless they took a vow like that of the Nazarites, but most men in the Holy Land wore longer hair in Biblical times. As far as women covering their heads during liturgy is concerned, that practice has been established by a divine command, and so it should still be done.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1771249' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:04 PM']Could this have been referring to specific cultural issues of the time? Also, could what they mean by" pray with" be different from our understanding? I mean, like someone else pointed out, both Popes Benedict XVI and JPII have prayed with people of other faiths and whether you think it's a good idea or not, Vatican II does allow it. -Katie[/quote]
No, the prohibition against praying with heretics and pagans was not a "cultural issue"; instead, it is connected with the commandment to properly worship God. Now, if Christ had said, "I am [b]a[/b] way, and [b]a[/b] truth, and [b]a[/b] life," then I suppose praying with heretics and pagans would be acceptable, but He did not say that, instead He said, "I am [b]the[/b] way, and [b]the[/b] truth, and [b]the[/b] life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." No one, not even the Pope can alter what has been divinely revealed.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771320' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:16 PM']As far as women covering their heads during liturgy is concerned, that practice has been established by a divine command, and so it should still be done.[/quote]

You shouldn't say things like that, it grates against modern sentiments...

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771327' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:19 PM']No, the prohibition against praying with heretics and pagans was not a "cultural issue"; instead, it is connected with the commandment to properly worship God. Now, if Christ had said, "I am [b]a[/b] way, and [b]a[/b] truth, and [b]a[/b] life," then I suppose praying with heretics and pagans would be acceptable, but He did not say that, instead He said, "I am [b]the[/b] way, and [b]the[/b] truth, and [b]the[/b] life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me." No one, not even the Pope can alter what has been divinely revealed.[/quote]

Just asking for a clarification; I pretty much agree with everything you've said...

So if an individual prays appropriately but happens to be doing it with an inappropriately-aligned group (i.e. muslims), that person's prayer is ineffectual or somethow polluted by the heresy of those present? But if a heretic prays during the Liturgy of the Word it doesn't affect the worship of orthodox Christians?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1771354' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:26 PM']Just asking for a clarification; I pretty much agree with everything you've said...

So if an individual prays appropriately but happens to be doing it with an inappropriately-aligned group (i.e. muslims), that person's prayer is ineffectual or somethow polluted by the heresy of those present? But if a heretic prays during the Liturgy of the Word it doesn't affect the worship of orthodox Christians?[/quote]
Pollution is a good word to describe it. Now, praying [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans is a good thing, and the Church does this even during her liturgical services. But if a Christian were to pray [b]with[/b] a group of heretics or pagans, he would -- according to the God-inspired Fathers and the ancient canons -- be automatically excommunicated and would have to do penance before being restored to communion with God and His Church.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1771358' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:31 PM']Pollution is a good word to describe it. Now, praying [b]for[/b] heretics and pagans is a good thing, and the Church does this even during her liturgical services. But if a Christian were to pray [b]with[/b] a group of heretics or pagans, he would -- according to the God-inspired Fathers and the ancient canons -- be automatically excommunicated and would have to do penance before being restored to communion with God and His Church.[/quote]

But such pollution isn't brought into the Divine Mysteries by the presence of a heretic or pagan amongst those practicing the orthodox faith?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1771354' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:26 PM']But if a heretic prays during the Liturgy of the Word it doesn't affect the worship of orthodox Christians?[/quote]
It is not the "prayers" of the heretic who happens to be "praying" during the liturgy of the Word that are effective, but the prayers of the whole Church gathered together in Christ's name that are efficacious.