Entering Synagogues, Praying With Non-christians, Etc.

[Apotheoun]

The [i]Pedalion[/i] (a.k.a. "The Rudder") is the authoritative collection of the ancient canons of the councils of the Church, and it explicitly condemns prayer with heretics and pagans (infidels). Now these canonical decisions are not merely disciplinary in nature, although they contain disciplinary sanctions (i.e., excommunication or penance) associated with them, but are instead founded upon divine revelation, which holds that one must offer prayer and worship to the Father, through the Son, and in the power of the Spirit, and that anything that involves syncretic or indifferentist activity is -- by its very nature -- to fall away from the Orthodox confession of the God-inspired Fathers and saints.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Ortho Doxa = right (true) praise or glory (worship)
Hetero Doxa = wrong (false) praise or glory (worship)

[Slappo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770780' date='Feb 2 2009, 10:12 PM']Slappo,

The ancient Fathers taught that only the Church offers true worship to the Tri-hypostatic Godhead, and that anything else is not worship, but is instead [i]idolatry[/i].

God grant you many happy years,
Todd[/quote]


I never denied that it wasn't true worship, only that the false worship (I.E idolatry) was in a distorted way directed towards the one True God.

I don't even know if that is possible though. Idolatry towards God sounds kind of odd. (and that rhymes!)


EDIT: FYI bed time for me, will check back tomorrow. Gnight!

Edited February 3, 2009 by Slappo

[Apotheoun]

The Church Fathers always told Christians that they should pray for non-Christians, but the same God-inspired Fathers forbade members of the Church from praying with non-believers or heretics under penalty of mortal sin.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1770788' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:29 PM']I don't even know if that is possible though. Idolatry towards God sounds kind of odd. (and that rhymes!)[/quote]
Yes, it doesn't sound possible to me. In fact, it sounds contrary to the teachings of the God-inspired Fathers.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770765' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:55 AM']Islam began a war of aggression that lasted 800 years against the Byzantine Christians (and that war ongoing for Orthodox Christians who live in the Islamic world), and that you make excuses for the followers of Mohammad is reprehensible.[/quote]


I wish I could say I expected something other than white noise, but that'd be a lie. If you want to have a serious discussion just let me know.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1770778' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:09 AM']Apotheoun,

Although I agree that no heretic offers true worship to God, I don't know if that means that one couldn't say that they offer "worship" (in it's broadest possible definition as opposed to Christian adoration) to the true God. It is a very subtle difference (if any).

Really what is sin then a distorted good. The distortion here is the things attributed to God.

I'm not sure if that holds at all. I would most surely say that their worship is not pure, true, or good (as that would be theological relativism), but I don't know if we could deny that they are at least attempting to worship the same God. The knowledge of God is lacking (Judaism lacks trinitarian theology accepting Christ as the 2nd person of the Trinity, Muslim is lacking... well... a lot).

Maybe an analogy or two.
Someone that plays the violin very well = Catholic
Someone that uses some sort of device to make a violin make noise = muslim/jew
Same instrument but one is music (true worship) while the other is not only not music, but a distortion and "evil" of music.

If my cousin when recalling the one time he met me thinks I have blonde hair and green eyes (even though I have brown hair and blue eyes) is he then not thinking of me? Him having my hair and eye color wrong is obviously not true (theological heresy), although the person whom he was recalling is still me, but distorted.

Although we cannot say they worship God with what worship truly means, I don't know if it is fair that because they are not in the fullness of truth and lacking key Christian doctrines it must therefore be a different god altogether rather then a distorted picture of the true God.[/quote]


that sounds resonable. I still don't really understand where one would fall into sin with the interfaith prayer. Like at what point have they gone to far?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770827' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:14 AM']I wish I could say I expected something other than white noise, but that'd be a lie. If you want to have a serious discussion just let me know.[/quote]
I should have expected an ad hominem from you.

God grant you many years.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770828' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:17 AM']that sounds resonable. I still don't really understand where one would fall into sin with the interfaith prayer. Like at what point have they gone to far?[/quote]
Alas, his comments have no basis of support in the Patristic and canonical tradition of the Church.

[Archaeology cat]

Jumping in here, without having read all the posts. I apologise in advance if I'm repeating what's been said. I have come to think that it isn't really a good idea to attend a service* at a non-Catholic venue. I say this because it can cause confusion, and thus a third party might assume you are endorsing the other place of worship by virtue of being at a religious service. This, then, could cause scandal. If anyone remembers me from when I first joined PM (under the SN of shinobininjasp), you'll know that I did not hold this view at first, but I've since seen the confusion caused to my family if I attend a non-Catholic service. They then assume that I'm OK with the beliefs of the other place of worship, which is certainly not the case. Yes, dialogue is necessary and good, but attending a non-Catholic religious service does not seem prudent to me. Bear in mind that this is my view on things, based on my own experiences.

*I'm not speaking of going to, say, Hebrew classes at a synagogue, an informational presentation on Islam at a mosque, or even a knitting class at a non-Catholic venue, as such events would not carry with them the expectation that you endorse the views of that religious institution. I am speaking only of religious events: services, prayer meetings, etc. I think I might even throw non-Catholic Bible study groups in there, if they are affiliated with a specific church, but I'm not entirely sure with that one right now.

[Apotheoun]

As I have said before, there is a difference between Christians praying [b]fo[/b]r non-Christians and praying [b]with[/b] non-Christians; the ancient God-inspired Fathers required the former, while rejecting the latter as incompatible with the Orthodox profession of the Christian faith.

[rkwright]

Apo - back on page 1 you answered that these older disciplines prevent praying with non-Christians... Can these disciplines be changed? Do you see JPII as violating these?

I think Dave asked this same question and you said "obey your Patriarch". Certainly if my Patriarch is committing a sin, I wouldn't want to do that?

[Paddington]

Apo,

Should I assume that you don't want non-Catholics to attend Mass?

Paddington

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770925' date='Feb 3 2009, 10:46 AM']As I have said before, there is a difference between Christians praying [b]fo[/b]r non-Christians and praying [b]with[/b] non-Christians; the ancient God-inspired Fathers required the former, while rejecting the latter as incompatible with the Orthodox profession of the Christian faith.[/quote]

Which Church Fathers said, infallibly, that we are not to pray with people of other faiths? -Katie

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1770884' date='Feb 3 2009, 09:17 AM']Jumping in here, without having read all the posts. I apologise in advance if I'm repeating what's been said. I have come to think that it isn't really a good idea to attend a service* at a non-Catholic venue. I say this because it can cause confusion, and thus a third party might assume you are endorsing the other place of worship by virtue of being at a religious service. This, then, could cause scandal. If anyone remembers me from when I first joined PM (under the SN of shinobininjasp), you'll know that I did not hold this view at first, but I've since seen the confusion caused to my family if I attend a non-Catholic service. They then assume that I'm OK with the beliefs of the other place of worship, which is certainly not the case. Yes, dialogue is necessary and good, but attending a non-Catholic religious service does not seem prudent to me. Bear in mind that this is my view on things, based on my own experiences.

*I'm not speaking of going to, say, Hebrew classes at a synagogue, an informational presentation on Islam at a mosque, or even a knitting class at a non-Catholic venue, as such events would not carry with them the expectation that you endorse the views of that religious institution. I am speaking only of religious events: services, prayer meetings, etc. I think I might even throw non-Catholic Bible study groups in there, if they are affiliated with a specific church, but I'm not entirely sure with that one right now.[/quote]
I agree. I have attended only for weddings of non-catholics, funerals, and with the Scouts.