Entering Synagogues, Praying With Non-christians, Etc.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770378' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:36 PM']I guess what I don't understand is how praying with other religions is compromising the Catholic faith. I could understand if the Pope went to a Mosque and adressed "Allah" in an open prayer, but simply gathering together and each member praying silently to their God? Would that be ok Apo? Like could Jews, Christians, and Muslims all adress a generic prayer to "The God of Abraham"?

What about something like when the Pope kissed the Qur'an?

[img]http://truereligiondebate.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/popejpkissingkoran.jpg[/img]


I mean I understand that is not a prayer but simply showing respect to a faith's religious object, but what are the exact limits?[/quote]

Hassan, I see nothing that prevents Roman Catholics from praying with those of other faiths-the Catechism acknowledges the common Abrahamic God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. I think the Eastern Church has a different view, though, based on what Apoetheoun has said. So I guess the answer is: depends on which Church. -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769449' date='Feb 2 2009, 02:39 AM']I think the Eastern Church just has a different way of thinking than the Roman Catholic Church...maybe it's a cultural thing? -Katie Edit: I totally don't mean that in a negative way or anything, I think that the worldviews differ culturally.[/quote]


I think perhapse to some extent it might be. Like when the Old Beleivers freaked in Russia. I mean I don't know nearly as much about this as Apo but I asked an Orthodox Christian who was going Roman as they say about the chances of the Church uniting and he did not think it was likely. To many Orthodox are opposed to the "Frankish" Church. Not to mention how nationalistic some Orthodox Church's are.

I mean that may be changing now some. I know in Russia religious faith is low. I think the stats are like 15-20% of Russians are practicing Christians, or really consider themselves Orthodox as a faith and not just an ethnic identity (all Russian nationals are [i]rossianin[/i], but the ethnic identity [i]russky[/i] usually implies some cultural affiliation with Orthodoxy even if they are atheists) 10-15% are Muslims (not counting Chechnya) and then like 1-2% are some other faith (like Protestant, Roman Catholic etc). I guess my point is that perhapse the Orthodox faith won't be so tied to national identity after communism, although I have no idea.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770387' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:44 PM']Hassan, I see nothing that prevents Roman Catholics from praying with those of other faiths-the Catechism acknowledges the common Abrahamic God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. I think the Eastern Church has a different view, though, based on what Apoetheoun has said. So I guess the answer is: depends on which Church. -Katie[/quote]


I kind of understand his point. I mean even if the Pope said the Our Father if he did it while silently praying with Muslims in the direction of Mecca in a position this could send the wrong message, but I would also assume that a Christian would not be barred from praying in a room simply because a Muslim happened to be praying in the same room, but where are the limits.

Is it just a judgement call?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770392' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:46 PM']I think perhapse to some extent it might be. Like when the Old Beleivers freaked in Russia. I mean I don't know nearly as much about this as Apo but I asked an Orthodox Christian who was going Roman as they say about the chances of the Church uniting and he did not think it was likely. To many Orthodox are opposed to the "Frankish" Church. Not to mention how nationalistic some Orthodox Church's are.

I mean that may be changing now some. I know in Russia religious faith is low. I think the stats are like 15-20% of Russians are practicing Christians, or really consider themselves Orthodox as a faith and not just an ethnic identity (all Russian nationals are [i]rossianin[/i], but the ethnic identity [i]russky[/i] usually implies some cultural affiliation with Orthodoxy even if they are atheists) 10-15% are Muslims (not counting Chechnya) and then like 1-2% are some other faith (like Protestant, Roman Catholic etc). I guess my point is that perhapse the Orthodox faith won't be so tied to national identity after communism, although I have no idea.[/quote]

Yes, based on what I know about the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches in the US, a lot people seem bound to their church for patriotic reasons and I do agree with you that . I'm in a Greek wedding pretty soon-I guess I'll find out their views on ecumenism and nationalism more then, since the bride (my friend) is neither Greek (she's German/Italian) nor Orthodox (she's non practicing Episcopalian) and no one in the entire wedding or on the guest list except the groom, best man and groom's mom are Greek and Greek Orthodox. -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770398' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:50 PM']I kind of understand his point. I mean even if the Pope said the Our Father if he did it while silently praying with Muslims in the direction of Mecca in a position this could send the wrong message, but I would also assume that a Christian would not be barred from praying in a room simply because a Muslim happened to be praying in the same room, but where are the limits.

Is it just a judgement call?[/quote]

Not totally sure-I guess you use your judgement based on what the Church says. I'd say that it's safe (again, talking about Roman Catholicism here) to do something the Pope has done, visit a house of worship and pray with people of another faith. Beyond that, I don't know. -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770400' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:51 PM']Yes, based on what I know about the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches in the US, a lot people seem bound to their church for patriotic reasons and I do agree with you that . I'm in a Greek wedding pretty soon-I guess I'll find out their views on ecumenism and nationalism more then, since the bride (my friend) is neither Greek (she's German/Italian) nor Orthodox (she's non practicing Episcopalian) and no one in the entire wedding or on the guest list except the groom, best man and groom's mom are Greek and Greek Orthodox. -Katie[/quote]

yeah, but also I hear Orthodox services are beautiful (I've been in an Orthodox Church, but never seen a service). For a lot of poor Russians the liturgy was the only thing really nice in their lives. I guess kind of like Chekhov.

My grandfather is an Episcopalian Priest who has worked in Hatti. He said the people loved to give to the church, to make it nice, because for so many of them it was the only really nice thing they were really a part of.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770413' date='Feb 2 2009, 11:58 PM']yeah, but also I hear Orthodox services are beautiful (I've been in an Orthodox Church, but never seen a service). For a lot of poor Russians the liturgy was the only thing really nice in their lives. I guess kind of like Chekhov.

My grandfather is an Episcopalian Priest who has worked in Hatti. He said the people loved to give to the church, to make it nice, because for so many of them it was the only really nice thing they were really a part of.[/quote]

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to disparage Orthodox theology/liturgy, one of my good friends is Russian Orthodox-I just agreed that a lot of people in the US, at least, identify it based more on national origin than theological agreement. But then, the same could be said of Roman Catholicism, it's just not as narrowly defined. That's cool that your grandfather is an Episcopalian Priest! -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770424' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:05 AM']Oh yeah, I didn't mean to disparage Orthodox theology/liturgy, one of my good friends is Russian Orthodox-I just agreed that a lot of people in the US, at least, identify it based more on national origin than theological agreement. But then, the same could be said of Roman Catholicism, it's just not as narrowly defined. That's cool that your grandfather is an Episcopalian Priest! -Katie[/quote]


oh, I didn't think you were, I just meant in additional to national identity

thanks
(grandfather)

Edited February 3, 2009 by Hassan

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770431' date='Feb 3 2009, 12:08 AM']oh, I didn't think you were, I just meant in additional to national identity

thanks
(grandfather)[/quote]

Gotcha-I'm actually pretty interesting to see what the wedding will be like. It seems pretty elaborate (it sounds like it has to be a royal wedding if you talk to the mother of the groom, haha!)! -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770345' date='Feb 2 2009, 08:19 PM']The Christain Byzantine Empire didn't take land and opress religious minorities? I can understand the emotion amongst Eastern Catholics who currently in a Muslim majority country where they suffer from descrimination or if they were still suffering the results, but I don't see the use in holding a grudge over something that happened hundreds of years ago. It's not like we are talking about the Russians still being bitter at the Tatars, rather it sounds like being bitter towards the religion of the empire that attacked you. That seems like Jews disliking all Eastern Christians because of the suffering they endured under the Byzantium empire and historically all over Eastern Europe. Not to mention the suffering of Muslims at the hands of Christians.[/quote]
Hassan,

The Byzantine Empire did not start the war with Islam; instead, it was the Muslims who -- without provocation -- to attack the Byzantines, but I doubt that you are intellectually honest enough to admit that. Were the Byzantines perfect, no they were not, but were they attacked first, yes they were, and they defended themselves against the Muslims for more than 800 years.

Islam, as I have said before, is a false religion, which has attacked the Church of Christ in the East (and in the West) throughout its history, and no Christian should ever let down his guard and delude himself into thinking that Islam can ever exist in a truly peaceful manner. Ultimately, it is the duty of Christians to preach the Gospel to Muslims in order to bring them to faith in Christ, which alone brings man to salvation.

Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1770387' date='Feb 2 2009, 08:44 PM']Hassan, I see nothing that prevents Roman Catholics from praying with those of other faiths-the Catechism acknowledges the common Abrahamic God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. I think the Eastern Church has a different view, though, based on what Apotheoun has said. So I guess the answer is: depends on which Church. -Katie[/quote]
Katie,

It is evident to me from your posts that you and I do not share the same faith. The "god" of Islam is a false "god," and Rabbinic Judaism, as I have said in several other threads, is an early Christian heresy, and no heretic -- not an Arian, a Gnostic, a Docetist, or a Rabbinic Jew -- offers true worship to God. Certainly, Christians of the Orthodox faith can pray for heretics and non-believers, but they can never pray with such people, for to do that is to apostatize from Orthodoxy and replace that undefiled faith with a lie.

I shall pray for you.

Todd

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1770701' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:25 AM']Hassan,

The Byzantine Empire did not start the war with Islam; instead, it was the Muslims who -- without provocation -- to attack the Byzantines, but I doubt that you are intellectually honest enough to admit that. Were the Byzantines perfect, no they were not, but were they attacked first, yes they were, and they defended themselves against the Muslims for more than 800 years.[/quote]

Where did I ever claim the Byzantine Empire attacked the Arab empire first?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1770761' date='Feb 2 2009, 10:54 PM']Where did I ever claim the Byzantine Empire attacked the Arab empire first?[/quote]
Islam began a war of aggression that lasted 800 years against the Byzantine Christians (and that war ongoing for Orthodox Christians who live in the Islamic world), and that you make excuses for the followers of Mohammad is reprehensible.

Edited February 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

Apotheoun,

Although I agree that no heretic offers true worship to God, I don't know if that means that one couldn't say that they offer "worship" (in it's broadest possible definition as opposed to Christian adoration) to the true God. It is a very subtle difference (if any).

Really what is sin then a distorted good. The distortion here is the things attributed to God.

I'm not sure if that holds at all. I would most surely say that their worship is not pure, true, or good (as that would be theological relativism), but I don't know if we could deny that they are at least attempting to worship the same God. The knowledge of God is lacking (Judaism lacks trinitarian theology accepting Christ as the 2nd person of the Trinity, Muslim is lacking... well... a lot).

Maybe an analogy or two.
Someone that plays the violin very well = Catholic
Someone that uses some sort of device to make a violin make noise = muslim/jew
Same instrument but one is music (true worship) while the other is not only not music, but a distortion and "evil" of music.

If my cousin when recalling the one time he met me thinks I have blonde hair and green eyes (even though I have brown hair and blue eyes) is he then not thinking of me? Him having my hair and eye color wrong is obviously not true (theological heresy), although the person whom he was recalling is still me, but distorted.

Although we cannot say they worship God with what worship truly means, I don't know if it is fair that because they are not in the fullness of truth and lacking key Christian doctrines it must therefore be a different god altogether rather then a distorted picture of the true God.

[Apotheoun]

Slappo,

The ancient Fathers taught that only the Church offers true worship to the Tri-hypostatic Godhead, and that anything else is not worship, but is instead [i]idolatry[/i].

God grant you many happy years,
Todd