Tinkerlina Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769327' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:40 AM']I see. So we should just ignore the Great Commission! Interesting.[/quote] I never said we shouldn't try to evangelize. I think ecumenism can be a form of evangelization-we're making our Christian faith visible to others-we're sharing our faith with them. How can people of other faiths ever come to know us if they don't talk to us? In my experience, when I was a pagan, I was more inclined to approach someone who was quietly living out their faith, who was interested in learning about my beliefs and sharing theirs with me, than someone who was more directly telling me to convert. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769340' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:45 AM']I never said we shouldn't try to evangelize. I think ecumenism can be a form of evangelization-we're making our Christian faith visible to others-we're sharing our faith with them. How can people of other faiths ever come to know us if they don't talk to us? In my experience, when I was a pagan, I was more inclined to approach someone who was quietly living out their faith, who was interested in learning about my beliefs and sharing theirs with me, than someone who was more directly telling me to convert. -Katie[/quote] That's what true ecumenism is supposed to be, actually -- a form of evangelization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Dave' post='1769342' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:46 AM']That's what true ecumenism is supposed to be, actually -- a form of evangelization.[/quote] That's how I think of it. It's a quieter way, for sure, but I think it's often more effective than "CONVERT NOW, YE HEATHENS!!" -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 The term "ecumenism" applies only between separated baptized Christians. To try and apply ecumenism with non-Christians would involved theological indifferentism and syncretism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769348' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:50 AM']The term "ecumenism" applies only between separated baptized Christians. To try and apply ecumenism with non-Christians would involved theological indifferentism and syncretism.[/quote] You already said that-but what about it being evangelization? -Katie (does a shot every time Apotheoun uses the term "theological indifferentism ) Edited February 2, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769351' date='Feb 1 2009, 10:52 PM']You already said that-but what about it being evangelization? -Katie[/quote] I do not have a problem with saying that ecumenism is a "type" of evangelization, although it is somewhat novel to say that, but ecumenism does not apply to non-Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Ultimately, if Catholics are not careful in how they approach inter-religious dialogue (i.e., if it comes off as indifferentist or syncretist), they could destroy any chance for success in ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Churches and certain other evangelical Protestant groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769352' date='Feb 2 2009, 01:53 AM']I do not have a problem with saying that ecumenism is a "type" of evangelization, although it is somewhat novel to say that, but ecumenism does not apply to non-Christians.[/quote] Alright, well whatever it should be called, it seems that the Church recognizes the truths we share with other faiths: [i]The Church and non-Christians 839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330 842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332 [/i] I think talking with those of other faiths about these goodnesses and truths in their religion can very easily segue into evangelization. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Tink, Thanks for that long copy and paste; I have -- of course -- read Latin Church's catechism. That said, you have failed to get my point, which is this: the actions of Roman Catholics -- if they are seen as indifferentist or syncretist by Eastern Orthodox Christians and Evangelicals -- will destroy any chance for reunion with those groups. Now, you may be okay with that, but I -- as an Eastern Catholic -- am not. Moreover, much of what Vatican II said about Islam (and other religions for that matter) has no basis in reality, and of course who Muslims worship is not a matter that the Magisterium can determine with any certainty. Taking what I have said into account, I have no qualms in saying that I do not worship the same "god" as the Muslims; instead, I worship the true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Todd Edited February 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769361' date='Feb 2 2009, 02:04 AM']Tink, I have read Latin Church's catechism, but you have failed to get my point. The actions of Roman Catholics, if they are seen as indifferentist or syncretist by Eastern Orthodox Christians and Evangelicals will destroy any chance for reunion with those groups. You may be okay with that, but I -- as an Eastern Catholic -- am not. Much of what Vatican II said about Islam has no basis in reality, and who Muslims worship is not a matter that the Magisterium can determine with any certainty. That said, I have no qualms in saying that I do not worship the same "god" as the Muslims; instead, I worship the true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Todd[/quote] No, I get your point about Eastern Orthodox relations potentially being damaged if they view the Church's interreligious dialogue as indifferent. However, perhaps the Eastern Church will recognize that it is done in the spirit of evangelization-as I said, discussing the mutual truths we all share (even as basic as, say, for example, the ten commandments between Christians and Jews) might lead to a conversion or two. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769369' date='Feb 1 2009, 11:08 PM']No, I get your point about Eastern Orthodox relations potentially being damaged if they view the Church's interreligious dialogue as indifferent. However, perhaps the Eastern Church will recognize that it is done in the spirit of evangelization-as I said, discussing the mutual truths we all share (even as basic as, say, for example, the ten commandments between Christians and Jews) might lead to a conversion or two. -Katie[/quote] None of my Eastern Orthodox friends see inter-religious dialogue as "evangelization"; instead, they see it as political correctness run wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769382' date='Feb 2 2009, 02:13 AM']None of my Eastern Orthodox friends see inter-religious dialogue as "evangelization"; instead, they see it as political correctness run wild.[/quote] That's too bad. I hope they come to see it as evangelization; likewise, I hope it is always done in the spirit of evangelization.-Katie Edited February 2, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 The more that Catholics do what you are talking about, the less the Orthodox are interested in the restoration of communion. Many of my Orthodox friends think that the Catholic Church is on the road to becoming indistinguishable from the Episcopal Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1769397' date='Feb 2 2009, 02:18 AM']The more that Catholics do what you are talking about, the less the Orthodox are interested in the restoration of communion. Many of my Orthodox friends think that the Catholic Church is on the road to becoming indistinguishable from the Episcopal Church.[/quote] Sorry that they feel that way. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1769400' date='Feb 1 2009, 11:18 PM']Sorry that they feel that way. -Katie[/quote] Me too, but the way to change their views would require that all Catholics once again believe that Christ is the sole savior of the world. Edited February 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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