Initial Conversion

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]6. As the Christian matures though, there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.[/quote]

[quote][b]St. Luke 12:47
That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more[/b][/quote]

[quote]1. Salvation is made available to all by God's Grace Alone.[/quote]

[quote][b]Gal 5:4- seperated from Christ, you've fallen from grace[/b][/quote]

[quote]4. To enter into this covenant, takes faith. That's it. No meritorious sacrifices of the Mosiac law. Faith however, is more than a simple belief.[/quote]
[quote]5. Faith, which is how we recieve a new relationship and new life in Christ, is applied to the soul initially through our response to the gospel- trust. [/quote]

[b]Faith is a gift from God. We do not earn it, we recieve it at baptism.At Conformation you confirm that gift, than you are given the grace to stand up and live The Faith from the Holy Spirit[/b].

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 10:18 AM'] 6. As the Christian matures though, there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.
[/quote]
bro adam, can u clarify what u mean by "no room for this faith to die off"? right now, i see that as a possibly questionable statement, but i may be assigning to it a definition other then the one u meant for it.

also, [b]Jason[/b], when u say we receive faith upon baptism, be careful that u do not imply that faith can't be had before baptism. faith afterall is what brings one to baptism (well, actually, faith through grace, but u get the idea).

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited March 18, 2004 by phatcatholic

[Joseph]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 10:18 AM']6. As the Christian matures though, there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.

7. No manner of good works "merits" our initial entrance into the covenant. Works are a part of faith (obedience) after salvation. We simply must remain in a covenant relationship with Christ in order to enter heaven.[/quote]
Just thought I would share my thoughts

Even before I was Catholic, I wondered, "Am I doing the things Christ calls me to do?" and "What if I did such and such sin....would I lose my salvation?"

There is no amount of good works we can do to earn our way into Heaven. Christ paid that price for us. I have never seen it taught in any Catholic book I have ever read. After initially placing our faith in Christ, we are called to follow Him. We should live according to His words, which includes doing "works", to the [u]best of our abilities[/u]. Not everyone can do as much as other people can because of life situations, but we have to try the best we can. If we knowingly and willingly sin against God, which could include sins of omission, we break our covenant. It can be restored, however, through the sacrament of reconciliation.

Heb. 11:6 - faith is the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of justification.

Gal. 5:6 - the faith that justifies us is faith working through love, not faith alone.

1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to be completed and perfected.

Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.

Edited March 18, 2004 by Joseph

[Carson Weber]

[b]To enter into this covenant, takes faith. That's it.[/b]

No, that isn't it. Entrance into a covenant requires an oath (Latin: [i]sacramentum[/i]), and it is in the sacraments that we ratify and renew our covenant with God.

Saving Faith is the disposition by which we live in covenant with God. It is the filial relationship of a child to his/her Father. It is not mere trust. It also includes the virtues of hope and charity.

For the Jews of Jesus' time, one kept covenant with God by keeping the Mosaic Law. For Christians, the Mosaic Law was a pedagogue that served its purpose by revealing sin, condemning the sinner, and prefiguring Jesus Christ. Now that the Mosaic Law is past and faith has come (this is Paul's argument in Galatians), we are given the Holy Spirit, making us children of God, and so we are now [b]able[/b] to live as children and keep covenant through the principle of faith. This live-giving principle is what we call the [i]New Law[/i], also called the [i]Holy Spirit[/i], which is a real power in the soul that enables us to keep the [i]Eternal Law[/i] of God, which the Mosaic Law participates in to a certain extent (e.g. Do not kill your neighbor, Do not commit adultery, Love and serve God, Love your neightbor, [i]et cetera[/i]).

Adam, read these articles that address the issue you've brought up head-on:

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/faith_al.htm[/url]


It is a little off-topic, but there is an excellent document on the EWTN website that was originally authored by John Henry Cardinal Newman on [i]Faith and Private Judgment[/i] that is an incredible analysis of the Protestant dilemma. Enjoy!

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/JUDGMENT.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/JUDGMENT.TXT[/url]

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]also, Jason, when u say we receive faith upon baptism, be careful that u do not imply that faith can't be had before baptism. faith afterall is what brings one to baptism (well, actually, faith through grace, but u get the idea).[/quote]

CCC page 212 # 737
[quote]"The mission of Christ and the Holy Spirit is brought to completion in the Church, which is the Body of Christ and the Temple of the Holy Spirit. This joint mission henceforth brings Christ's faithful to share in his communion with the Father in the Holy Spirit. The Spirit prepares men and goes out to them with his grace, in order to draw them to Christ. The Spirit [i]manifests[/i] the risen Lord to them, recalls his word to them and opens their minds to the understanding of his Death and Resurrection. He [i]makes present[/i] the mystery of Christ, supremely in the Eucharist, in order to reconcile them, to [i]bring them into communion[/i] with God, that they may 'Bear much fruit"[/quote]

I came across wrong. Faith is a pure gift from God period.... At baptism it is sealed (We become sons in the Son) and at conformation it is set a blaze. Faith is there for everyone, but you have to accept it!!

God Bless You!

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 12:18 PM'] This is going to be "rough" but bear with me. This is how I see justification/salvation


1. Salvation is made available to all [b]by[/b] God's Grace Alone.

2. The seperation that sin caused in man between us and God can only be reconciled in a covenant between God and man.

3. Christians follow the New Covenant, made available to us thorugh Christ's blood.

4. To enter into this covenant, takes faith. That's it. No meritorious sacrifices of the Mosiac law. Faith however, is more than a simple belief.

5. Faith, which is how we recieve a new relationship and new life in Christ, is applied to the soul initially through our response to the gospel- trust.

6. As the Christian matures though, there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.

7. No manner of good works "merits" our initial entrance into the covenant. Works are a part of faith (obedience) after salvation. We simply must remain in a covenant relationship with Christ in order to enter heaven. [/quote]
Read James.

Faith is belief; James affirms this by saying "Faith without works is dead". Saying that faith is more than simple belief is the way that non-Catholics have build it into.

[b]Saying "faith includes works" and if we must have faith to be saved, then we must do good works since they go hand in hand with your definition of faith... so the reality is that the fundie POV contradicts itself in it's very definition of the term "faith" - where is this meaning before 1600 AD?[/b]


[quote]there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.[/quote]

Faith is active by good works - this is justification, not salvation. Salvation is when we get to Heaven.

[quote]No manner of good works "merits" our initial entrance into the covenant. Works are a part of faith (obedience) after salvation.[/quote]

No one has said good works merits our inital entrance into the covenant. Works are not part of faith, read James. According to Christ we are not saved until the end.

[quote]We simply must remain in a covenant relationship with Christ in order to enter heaven.[/quote]

That falls under works, which falls under justification.


[b]Please explain to us how your definition fits all bible verses covering the topic. [/b]Works are not a part of faith "after salvation" - We are not saved until we are in Heaven because we can still fall. Once in Heaven we then are saved. Jesus is our salvation, until we are with Him we are working towards it.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 18 2004, 10:51 AM'] bro adam, can u clarify what u mean by "no room for this faith to die off"? right now, i see that as a possibly questionable statement, but i may be assigning to it a definition other then the one u meant for it.

pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
As James says, faith without works is dead. Faith must be an obedient faith.

[Brother Adam]

Thank you Carson.

[quote]Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to the idea of salvation sola gratia (by grace alone), but fewer are aware that Catholics also do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.[/quote]

THANK YOU James Akin! This article is what I've been trying to articulate, but miserably so.

[quote]However, if the term "faith" is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.[/quote]

Edited March 18, 2004 by Brother Adam

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:44 AM'] As James says, faith without works is dead. Faith must be an obedient faith. [/quote]
oh, well in that case AMEN!

i thought u were saying w/ that statement that justification can't be lost once it is obtained. do u beleive that we can lose our initial justification?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 01:44 PM'] As James says, faith without works is dead. Faith must be an obedient faith. [/quote]
You just affirmed that works are necessary.

No one is saying that we work our way to salvation.

Salvation and Justification: there is a difference:

Please read some of these articles:
[url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/salvation.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/salvation.asp[/url]

By saying "obedient faith" includes works you are saying that works are necessary. If works are necessary then faith alone fails.

The fundies had to redefine "faith" to get around the facts that faith and works are necessary. The fundie definition of "faith" is the Catholic definition of "Faith and Works".


God Bless,
ironmonk

P.S.: Obedience is a work. Anything that we "do" is a work. We don't have works, we have faith. We do works.

Edited March 18, 2004 by ironmonk

[Brother Adam]

That's something I'm starting to wave on in light of covenant theology. As a Lutheran I did not accept OSAS, and reluctantly accepted it as a Baptist.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:52 AM'] You just affirmed that works are necessary. [/quote]
That's the problem Ironmonk, you see me as a anti-Catholic fundie to be attacked head on. That is how your posts come across. I'm way beyond that. The types of posts phatcatholic is giving are what I need to understand right now.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

[Aloysius]

say someone gives you a free gift of a puppy. now, if you do not feed the puppy it will die. does that mean that the one that gave the puppy to you has asked that you earn the puppy? by no means! the puppy is a free gift, but you must nurture it, give it food and water, or it will die and you won't get to play with it anymore.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:54 AM'] That's something I'm starting to wave on in light of covenant theology. As a Lutheran I did not accept OSAS, and reluctantly accepted it as a Baptist. [/quote]
ok, well then it appears as though we are in agreement. is there a debate here? let me know if there are still doctrines pertaining to this issue that you don't understand or with which you do not agree.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

It's something that is just "unsure" for me. I don't know. The point to my thread is to understand how one is "saved" to use a protestant term.