Initial Conversion

[Brother Adam]

I want to look at initial conversion here for a few minutes, because its one of those things that Evangicals and Fundies love to tear Catholics apart limb for limb on. Outside of covenant theology, the doctrines surrounding initial conversion make no sense whatsoever. For infants, one can easily say that faith alone is the saving action, while for adults faith has to have an active response. (CCC 155)

As much as the word "Catholic" makes a fundies skin crawl, so does the world "alone" for the Catholic. I know we agree that it is by the "Grace of God alone" that we can be saved by. We can go through life doing good works everyday, our whole life, and without the Grace of God off to hell we go packing.

So we also know in CCC 2010 that no one "can meit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification".

This must in turn mean that we [b]can[/b] merit the continuing works of forgiveness and justification. This is where Catholics and Fundies part agreement big time. Fundies claim justification ENDS at initial conversion (which I would say it almost seems even within covenant theology this is by "faith alone" albeit the faith of the parents). Catholics claim our justification is just getting the engine started. Fundies claim santification Begins immeadiately after conversion. Catholics claim justification and santification can't be seperated.

Well....I admit that I'm still for a 'faith-alone" justification. Perhaps its from years of protestant training, but the idea that we earn our salvation, even through condign merit makes me slam the breaks on that train.

Fundies see "meriting our salvation" in the terms that one has a goal to reach- I.E. "I must so THIS good in order to enter heaven- if I fall short of THIS mark God will send me to hell despite any faith in Christ I have.

Where Protestants- even the Non-OSAS garden variety basically say that we need to have an active faith, but no amount of good works is going to earn our salvation. If we are in God's grace we are in God's grace, if we are in the family, that is all there is to it.

Thanks for listin'
Bro. Adam

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 07:08 AM'] This must in turn mean that we [b]can[/b] merit the continuing works of forgiveness and justification.

[/quote]
right off hand, i'm not sure if this is a correct statement. continual forgiveness and justification are not gifts that we earn. they are gifts that we receive. when i go to confession, this is not me "doing" something so as to "earn" forgiveness. it is instead two things:

1. me maintaining my faith in Jesus Christ, an obedient faith that calls me to seek his forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation.
2. me purely accepting His gift of forgiveness and opening myself to the way in which God has chosen to forgive his people.

as such, forgiveness is nothing that i "earn" or could ever "deserve." it is instead a byproduct of my faith in Jesus Christ.

does this help Bro Adam? also, pham, please correct me if my theology is incorrect here.

assuming that my above explanation is correct, then another statement of yours would likewise be questionable:

[quote]but the idea that we earn our salvation, even through condign merit makes me slam the breaks on that train.[/quote]
i would slam on the brakes as well! however, i don't see catholicism as the train that harbors any "earn our salvation" passengers.

i hope this helps.............thank you for your honest search for the truth...........pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Livin_the_MASS]

Hey Brother Adam,
Not quite understanding I think? Does this help?

JAMES Ch 3: 18-20

[quote]"Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, [b][u]and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works[/b][/u]. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. [b][u]Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is usless[/b][/u]?"[/quote]

Plus Jesus said to "KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS"

God Bless You!
Hope this helps!

[ironmonk]

The fundie point of view has no harmony of the Scriptures, for from the fundie point of view the bible contradicts itself. If the bible contradicts itself then there is no God.

There is no basis in Scripture for the fundie POV when so many other verses, especially those spoken by Christ say otherwise. I wish they would read the bible.

Only with the Catholic POV is there harmony. Salvation and Justification are related, but not exactly the same. We are saved because of Jesus Christ, but we are justified by our works. Once we learn of Christ we must live a live in Him and endure to the end to be justified.



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[b]St. Matt 16:24 [/b]Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
[b]25 [/b]For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
[b]26 [/b]What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
[b]27 [/b]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then [b][u]he will repay everyone according to his conduct[/u][/b].

[color=blue]We are justified by our works. Fundie POV falls apart. Either the fundie POV is wrong, or there is no God and Jesus was just a man - but we know that there is God and Jesus is God the Son - Therefore the fundie POV is false.[/color]


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[b]St. Matt 25:31[/b]
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
[b]32 [/b]and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
[b]33 [/b]He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
[b]34 [/b]Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
[b]35 [/b]For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
[b]36 [/b]naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
[b]37 [/b]Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
[b]38 [/b]When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
[b]39 [/b]When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
[b]40 [/b]And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
[b]41 [/b]Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
[b]42 [/b]For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[b]43 [/b]a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
[b]44 [/b]Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
[b]45 [/b]He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
[b]46 [/b]And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
You must do good works.


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[b]St. Luke 12:47 [/b]
That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
[b]48 [/b]and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

[color=blue]If we know the will of the Father, and do not do it, we will be punished. This falls under justification.[/color]


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[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b] So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[color=blue]We will be judged by our deeds, our works. Preachers who say that all you need is faith and it doesn't matter what sins you do to get to heaven, are lying to you. The want your money.[/color]


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[b]St. Matt 10:22 [/b] You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

[b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b] But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

[color=blue]No one will be saved until the end. We must endure to the end, meaning we must do good works and have faith. Enduring to the end is a work that justifies us.[/color]


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[b]St. Matt 7:1 [/b] "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
[b]2 [/b]For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.
[b]3 [/b]Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

[color=blue]We will be judged on how we judge others. This is a justification.[/color]


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[b]St. John 3:19 [/b] And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
[b]20 [/b]For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
[b]21 [/b]But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.

[color=blue]If we do wicked things then we are not justified.[/color]



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[b]James 2:14 [/b] What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
[b]15 [/b]If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
[b]16 [/b]and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
[b]17 [/b]So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
[b]18 [/b]Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
[b]19 [/b]You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
[b]20 [/b]Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
[b]21[/b] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[b]22 [/b]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
[b]23 [/b]Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
[b]24 [/b]See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[b]25 [/b]And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
[b]26 [/b]For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

[color=blue]This makes if very clear that faith without works is worthless. Works justify us. [/color]


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[b]Eph 2:2 [/b] in which you once lived following the age of this world, 4 following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient.
[b]3 [/b]All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest.
[b]4 [/b]But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us,
[b]5 [/b]even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ 5 (by grace you have been saved),
[b]6 [/b]raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus,
[b]7 [/b]that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
[b]8 [/b]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
[b]9 [/b]it is not from works, so no one may boast.
[b]10 [/b]For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus [u][b]for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them[/b][/u].




God Bless,
ironmonk

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]St. Luke 12:47
That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

If we know the will of the Father, and do not do it, we will be punished. This falls under justification.[/quote]

Go IRONMONK!!

Good quote for purgatory.

[Brother Adam]

Hi PhatCatholic,

Thanks for your post. Unfortunately my three year tenure on the BaptistBoard makes it impossible for me to take ironmonks "word for it", so I appreciate your being willing to work with me on this.

[quote]1. me maintaining my faith in Jesus Christ, an obedient faith that calls me to seek his forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation.[/quote]

This type of thing I'm cool with. And it seems this is what covenant theology is alot about. That to get to heaven is in many ways by "faith alone" but faith CANNOT be dead. It MUST be an active and obedient faith (Romans 1:5). But there is no measure of good works that can justify us. It is staying within God's grace that counts the most. Condign merit to me, affects our treasure in heaven, but not our eternal state.

Do you kindof see what I'm saying? My problem with "earning salvation" would only be if it means that there is a certain bar that we need to meet, as in once we do a certian number of good works we get into heaven. I'm not sure that this is the Catholic position, but I need to clarify it.

Thanks,
Bro. Adam

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]PURGATORY

Mt. 5:48- be perfect as you heavenly Father is perfect

Heb. 12:14- strive for that holiness w/o which cannot see God

Jam 3:2- we all fall short in many respects

Rev 21:27- nothing unclean shall enter heaven

1 Jn 5:16-17- degrees of sins distinguished

Jam 1:14-15- when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death

2 Sam12:13-14- David, though forgiven, still punished for sin

Mt 5:26- you will not be released until paid last penny

Mt 12:32- sin against the Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next

Mt 12:36- account for every idle word on judgement day

2 Macc 12:44-46- atoned for dead to free them from sin

1 Cor 3:15- suffer loss, but saved through fire

1 Pet 3:18-20; 4:6- Jesus preached to the spirits in prision

2 Tim 1:16-18- Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus

1 Cor 15:29-30- Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead[/quote]

[phatcatholic]

i can assure you that is not the catholic position

there is no "bar to meet" or "number of works" to fulfill

salvation requires grace through obedient faith

[Brother Adam]

Thank you phatcatholic.


Jason, I've long ago accepted purgatory. That was the second tenant after contraception that I accepted.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:33 AM'] Hi PhatCatholic,

Thanks for your post. Unfortunately my three year tenure on the BaptistBoard makes it impossible for me to take ironmonks "word for it", so I appreciate your being willing to work with me on this.



This type of thing I'm cool with. And it seems this is what covenant theology is alot about. That to get to heaven is in many ways by "faith alone" but faith CANNOT be dead. It MUST be an active and obedient faith (Romans 1:5). But there is no measure of good works that can justify us. It is staying within God's grace that counts the most. Condign merit to me, affects our treasure in heaven, but not our eternal state.

Do you kindof see what I'm saying? My problem with "earning salvation" would only be if it means that there is a certain bar that we need to meet, as in once we do a certian number of good works we get into heaven. I'm not sure that this is the Catholic position, but I need to clarify it.

Thanks,
Bro. Adam [/quote]
No one said that we earn salvation. We cannot earn salvation.

Salvation and justification are two different things.

[b][u]This is the point of this reply:[/u]
We are saved solely based on that Christ died for us. To be saved we must go through Christ. Our works justify us... they do not save us. [u]Our works show that we are going through Christ.[/u][/b]


Where is it that I said take my word for it? LOOK and think about the very words of Christ...

[b]St. Matt. 16:27[/b] [color=red]For [u][b]the Son of Man [/b][/u]will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he [u][b]will repay everyone according to his conduct.[/b][/u][/color]

Why is this so hard to understand that the fundie POV is way off?
The fundie POV does not match up with what Christ said. It's very clear that we will be repayed according to our conduct.

Work with you? Did I not post a few bible verses? Did you read them and think about them or skim them thinking you know the bible?


I don't understand how you can even think I meant "take my word for it".


God Bless,
ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 09:41 AM'] Thank you phatcatholic.


Jason, I've long ago accepted purgatory. That was the second tenant after contraception that I accepted. [/quote]
keep em comin bro adam, i am more than happy to help!

also, if u like, u can message me w/ MSN or AOL IM some time. i would love to chat w/ u and possibly answer some more of your questions or comments. u can find my online nicks by clicking on my name.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

deeeep breaths ironmonk

(gotta luv ur zeal tho!)

[Livin_the_MASS]

Maybe this will help?

[quote]Assurance of Salvation?

Mt 7:21- not everyone saying'Lord, Lord' will inherit

Mt 24:13- those who persevere to the end will be saved

Rom 11:22- remain in his kindness or you will be cut off

Phil 2:12- work out your salvation in fear and trembling

1 Cor 9:27- drive body for fear of being disqualified

1 Cor10:11-12- those thinking they are secure, may fall

[b]Gal 5:4- seperated from Christ, you've fallen from grace[/b]

2 Tim 2:11-13- must hold out to end to reign with Christ

Heb 6:4-6- describes sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away

Heb 10:22- heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water[/quote]


Look these up they will help Brother Adam!

Edited March 18, 2004 by Jason

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 18 2004, 09:45 AM'] keep em comin bro adam, i am more than happy to help!

also, if u like, u can message me w/ MSN or AOL IM some time. i would love to chat w/ u and possibly answer some more of your questions or comments. u can find my online nicks by clicking on my name.

pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
Thanks phatcatholic,

I added you to my buddy list.

[Brother Adam]

This is going to be "rough" but bear with me. This is how I see justification/salvation


1. Salvation is made available to all [b]by[/b] God's Grace Alone.

2. The seperation that sin caused in man between us and God can only be reconciled in a covenant between God and man.

3. Christians follow the New Covenant, made available to us thorugh Christ's blood.

4. To enter into this covenant, takes faith. That's it. No meritorious sacrifices of the Mosiac law. Faith however, is more than a simple belief.

5. Faith, which is how we recieve a new relationship and new life in Christ, is applied to the soul initially through our response to the gospel- trust.

6. As the Christian matures though, there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.

7. No manner of good works "merits" our initial entrance into the covenant. Works are a part of faith (obedience) after salvation. We simply must remain in a covenant relationship with Christ in order to enter heaven.