Organ Cloning

[CatherineM]

My biggest concern with cloning, especially hybridization, is that we may create something that destroys us all. The worst diseases in history have started as animal diseases, and crossed the barrier. That barrier is there for a reason. Ebola - bats, Swine Flu - duh, AIDS - monkeys, Bubonic plague - fleas. We tend to use pigs for our human experiments. As someone who lost a big chunk of my family to the 1918 Flu, I'm kind of uncomfortable with that idea.

One organ that I hope we don't start cloning is the uterus. Rich people who either don't want to mess with a pregnancy, can't carry a child to term, or a gay marriage situation, are already renting out uteruses. Some of those end up legally sticky, surrogate moms change their minds, divorces happen while waiting, or adoption legalities. You can't tell me that if the option of a laboratory grown uterus, perhaps implanted in a pig, was an option, that people wouldn't jump at it.

[HisChildForever]

I really have no idea if a human/animal hybrid would have a soul. I am leaning towards saying "no." A human is created from two humans. A being created from a human and a lesser animal is something else. Just because the hybrid may look like a human does not mean it is a human. (I am not trying to be cruel.) Life - the soul - starts at conception, when a human egg and a human sperm meet, and the sperm fertilizes the egg. An egg by itself is not a human being, and a sperm by itself is not a human being.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1764771' date='Jan 28 2009, 04:12 PM']My biggest concern with cloning, especially hybridization, is that we may create something that destroys us all. The worst diseases in history have started as animal diseases, and crossed the barrier. That barrier is there for a reason. Ebola - bats, Swine Flu - duh, AIDS - monkeys, Bubonic plague - fleas. We tend to use pigs for our human experiments. As someone who lost a big chunk of my family to the 1918 Flu, I'm kind of uncomfortable with that idea.

One organ that I hope we don't start cloning is the uterus. Rich people who either don't want to mess with a pregnancy, can't carry a child to term, or a gay marriage situation, are already renting out uteruses. Some of those end up legally sticky, surrogate moms change their minds, divorces happen while waiting, or adoption legalities. You can't tell me that if the option of a laboratory grown uterus, perhaps implanted in a pig, was an option, that people wouldn't jump at it.[/quote]

Oh, don't worry. Artificial womb technology will almost certainly be perfected on a mass-market scale within the next ten years, effectively replacing natural pregnancy as the standard procedure. Nice, huh? I can imagine insurance companies and the mother's workplace putting a lot of pressure to opt for the safer, more efficient method. "And just think," they'll say, "you get to watch the beauty of your developing child before your very eyes!"

[sweens8403]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 11:34 PM']Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote]


The real trick is dealing with the atheistic/antitheistic scientists and society who don't subscribe to the concept of souls.

Out of curiosity have these scientists participating in these studies said what they're hoping to glean from it? Animal strength in humans? Disease resistance (afterall, many animals can eat raw (sometimes scavenged) meat with no ill effects)? Glossy fur coats? Or just because they can?

[Winchester]

[quote name='sweens8403' post='1762924' date='Jan 26 2009, 08:36 PM']I agree with CatherineM. Throughout your adult life your body uses what are called adult stem cells which are simply cells whose role in the body has not yet been specified. In fact, your red blood cells all begin like this in the bone marrow.

A similar process begins after an egg is fertilized. The zygote begins to divide, and soon stem cells are produced. These stem cells will eventually differentiate into your various organs, connective tissue, blood cells, etc.

The difference is that by harvesting embryonic stem cells you destroy the life they support. Harvesting adult stem cells does not result in the death of the donor.

So I don't think there would be anything morally reprehensible with organ cloning. It would be akin to people donating their own blood to be used for a surgical operation later, no worries about matching.

It would be expensive as all get out though.[/quote]
[img]http://theintvduals.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/doogie-howser-md.jpg[/img]

[picchick]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 10:34 PM']Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote]

Why not?

I do not think that it will manage to grow and develop.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='sweens8403' post='1764947' date='Jan 28 2009, 06:45 PM']The real trick is dealing with the atheistic/antitheistic scientists and society who don't subscribe to the concept of souls.

Out of curiosity have these scientists participating in these studies said what they're hoping to glean from it? Animal strength in humans? Disease resistance (afterall, many animals can eat raw (sometimes scavenged) meat with no ill effects)? Glossy fur coats? Or just because they can?[/quote]
"Just because they can", probably. I have a feeling that it's somehow similar to embryonic stem cell research, etc. I'm not well versed.

Something I should mention, it's pretty unlikely that such a hybrid even [b]could[/b] develop. It would probably naturally die long before we'd have to worry about it, so my question was more hypothetical than realistic.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 11:34 PM']I don't want to hijack, and I'll be happy to start a new thread if you want, but there's something that was bugging me that I want to bring up.
As you probably know (or at least as I heard) the UK legalized the 'production' of animal/human hybrid embryos for use in genetic research and some such evil stuff.
Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)[/url]

[picchick]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1765099' date='Jan 28 2009, 09:39 PM'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)[/url][/quote]

Poor little sheep goat...doesn't know how ugly it is.


Really is it our place to figure out whether those humanimals have souls or not? Let God take care of that.

[abercius24]

[quote name='picchick' post='1765374' date='Jan 29 2009, 12:38 AM']Really is it our place to figure out whether those humanimals have souls or not? Let God take care of that.[/quote]

The biggest question would be one of our approach toward justice if they grew into a juvenile or adult stage. If one killed another, would we be morally obligated to have a trial and enforce a just punishment? Or would simply putting them down like we do man-eating bears be our solution? If it ever came to this, the Church has a general definition of the soul that would allow her to guide us to a right answer. Frankly, if these "humanimals" demonstrate an intellect and a free-will, then I'd be happy to consider them sentient beings just like the rest of us humans. But would they have inherited original sin and be in need of salvation as we do? We would really need the Church to answer that question. Though, we should heavily pray the Lord saves us from such complications. Lord have mercy.

As far as cloning organs from adult stem cells, I don't see the harm outside of what dangerous roads those technologies could otherwise take us. We grow skin as part of skin grafts. Why not other body parts?

And by definition, a soul is that which gives oneness -- unity -- to a group of organs or cells (depending on how granular you want to see it). An organ is only a part. It cannot have a soul of its own. Harvesting organs from fully grown clones -- like in the movie [spoiler]The Island[/spoiler] -- that is clearly wrong because the clone is basically a scientifically engineered twin brother/sister with his/her own soul from which parts are being stolen.

Edited January 29, 2009 by abercius24

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1764202' date='Jan 27 2009, 10:34 PM']As you probably know (or at least as I heard) the UK legalized the 'production' of animal/human hybrid embryos for use in genetic research and some such evil stuff.
Do you think these hybrids have human souls? If one, by a sick and twisted fluke, managed to grow and develop, could we call it human?[/quote]

Define Hybrid. Are they inserting animal genes into human zygotes? Or are these truly chimeric hybrids with mixed cell lines of human and animal cells on the same plate? There is a big difference. I imagine it is the first case...which I think is probably already crossing the line on ethical standards. But given it is just a gene or several genes inserted into the countless basepairs of DNA...then it is still DEFINITELY HUMAN. I mean viruses often insert themselves into our DNA and leave behind remnant pseudogenes that have little function but leave that cell different than it was when they found it.

If by hybrid you mean it in the proper chimeric sense, then I do not think there is any possible way the developing embryo would be viable. The cell-to-cell signalling would be all off...not to mention the problems with immunity and autoimmunity. It would be liable to have an immune system develop and start attacking the other half of itself. No way it would survive. Given this chimera's intrinsic inability to maintain its internal cohesion, its lack of 'animation' in the proper sense...its utter incapacity to develop into a human...I would say it does NOT have a soul. The soul is what animates the body.

This line of thinking makes me ponder about conceptions with profound chromosomal abnormalities which are incompatible with life...usually these pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first few weeks. I wonder what Thomas Aquinas would say about the 'soul' or no 'soul' question of these conceptions.....guess that's a post for another thread.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1764771' date='Jan 28 2009, 03:12 PM']One organ that I hope we don't start cloning is the uterus. Rich people who either don't want to mess with a pregnancy, can't carry a child to term, or a gay marriage situation, are already renting out uteruses. Some of those end up legally sticky, surrogate moms change their minds, divorces happen while waiting, or adoption legalities. You can't tell me that if the option of a laboratory grown uterus, perhaps implanted in a pig, was an option, that people wouldn't jump at it.[/quote]

I don't know that a human fetus in a pig would work. Its not just a location thing, but maternal hormones and other chemicals which cross the placenta may be important in directing tissue growth and maturation..and while the womb is a relatively shielded site from the mother's immune system, I wonder as well if there would be some giant issues with a pig's body rejecting the uterus/fetus outright.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='picchick' post='1765374' date='Jan 29 2009, 12:38 AM']Really is it our place to figure out whether those humanimals have souls or not? Let God take care of that.[/quote]

I would say it is our place to figure it out because the gravity of our actions seem to somewhat depend on whether the tissue/creature in question deserves the natural law protection that we afford human beings that have rational, immortal souls.

Then again...how do you try to glean from the natural law in regard to something wholly unnatural?????

Edited January 29, 2009 by Veridicus

[picchick]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1765420' date='Jan 29 2009, 01:04 AM']The biggest question would be one of our approach toward justice if they grew into a juvenile or adult stage. If one killed another, would we be morally obligated to have a trial and enforce a just punishment? Or would simply putting them down like we do man-eating bears be our solution? If it ever came to this, the Church has a general definition of the soul that would allow her to guide us to a right answer. Frankly, if these "humanimals" demonstrate an intellect and a free-will, then I'd be happy to consider them sentient beings just like the rest of us humans. But would they have inherited original sin and be in need of salvation as we do? We would really need the Church to answer that question. Though, we should heavily pray the Lord saves us from such complications. Lord have mercy.

As far as cloning organs from adult stem cells, I don't see the harm outside of what dangerous roads those technologies could otherwise take us. We grow skin as part of skin grafts. Why not other body parts?

And by definition, a soul is that which gives oneness -- unity -- to a group of organs or cells (depending on how granular you want to see it). An organ is only a part. It cannot have a soul of its own. Harvesting organs from fully grown clones -- like in the movie [spoiler]The Island[/spoiler] -- that is clearly wrong because the clone is basically a scientifically engineered twin brother/sister with his/her own soul from which parts are being stolen.[/quote]
[quote name='Veridicus' post='1765895' date='Jan 29 2009, 04:08 PM']I would say it is our place to figure it out because the gravity of our actions seem to somewhat depend on whether the tissue/creature in question deserves the natural law protection that we afford human beings that have rational, immortal souls.

Then again...how do you try to glean from the natural law in regard to something wholly unnatural????? [/quote]

I was waiting for people to bring this up. Then it would of course depend on the cognitive functioning of the humanimal. What do you do for a person who is metally challenged? As the mentally challenged human being matures, we cannot hold them totally accountable for their actions. Does that cause them not to have a soul? If they were to kill another how do we hold THEM accountable. I think that we should treat the humanimals the same way. It would all depend on their cognitive functioning. After thinking about it, I do not think that humanimals will be able to function at the same intellectual and cognitive level that you or I do. You see who one gene mutation can cause a whole slew of cognitive dysfunctions. What happens when we had a whole set of animal genes to the mix?

I do not think that we would have to worry if they have a soul or not. I think that we should leave that up to God. I think that we educate them to the functioning capacity that they can be educated too and leave the rest up to God. I think that we care for them we would any other human because, despite being part animal, they still have that human entity and should be treated with dignity.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='picchick' post='1766064' date='Jan 29 2009, 07:01 PM']I do not think that we would have to worry if they have a soul or not. I think that we should leave that up to God. I think that we educate them to the functioning capacity that they can be educated too and leave the rest up to God. I think that we care for them we would any other human because, despite being part animal, they still have that human entity and should be treated with dignity.[/quote]


You really get into these fantastical hypotheticals don't you?