The Role Of Images

[Dave]

There's an argument against images that I've seen some non-Catholics put forth but which I've never seen addressed. Now please understand that I know why, according to the Bible, images ARE acceptable and why Protestant claims that they're idols are wrong. Anyway, we have statues and stuff to remind us of Jesus, Mary, and the saints, and it's supposed to help our faith. Well, I don't have my Bible in front of me right now, but I've heard some fundamentalists, in response to that, cite the Bible passage (can't remember book, chapter, or verse) that says, "Faith comes through hearing ..." . So how would one go about refuting that argument?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I don't really understand the argument. Just because a Scripture passage says "faith comes through hearing" we aren't supposed to have images?
I don't really think its much of an argument, just a misuse of a passage that has nothing to do with images or anything.
I suppose if you wanted to play that kind of verse slanging game you could come back with verses like, the soldier at the foot of the Cross who said "truly this was the Son of God." For him faith came through seeing (ultimately its through Grace anyway).
Someone who would make that kind of an argument probably isn't really interested in hearing what you have to say anyway. We agree that faith comes through hearing, but this doesn't mean we aren't human beings with five senses who are effected by all five. And the workings of Grace go beyond hearing or seeing, God works on the heart. If a person honestly understands this passage to mean something that goes against this I think having any kind of meaningful discussion on Scripture would be pretty frustrating to say the least.
You could also mention how many people have spoken about the role of beauty in their conversion. Many people who were atheists were led to faith through seeing the beauty of nature and stuff like that. Even Paul talks about this so obviously Paul did not mean that hearing is all there is.

Edited March 18, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Livin_the_MASS]

When I look at a crucifix, I use it as a meditation. Like the Chaplet of Divine Mercy on each decade I focus on a wound. Like for instance I say it almost like a Holy Rosary. On the first decade I concentrate on wound in the right hand for all the times (I) we abuse some one physically in anyway. The piercing of the left hand, for all the times (I) we turn our hand for our brothers and sisters in need. The feet for all the times (I) we walk away from Him and His One Truth Our Dear Lord had to make atonement for these things. Jesus have mercy on me a sinner. Sacramentals are used for medatative reasons, to bring your mind to the things above!

God Bless You!!!
Hope this helps?

Edited March 18, 2004 by Jason

[mamalove]

There's a great book that I read that addresses this matter. It's called "The Usual Suspects" and I think its by Karl Keating. Its got like a whole chapter on images.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]Statues

Ex 25:18-19- make two cherubium of beaten gold

Num 21:8-9- Moses made bronze serpent & put on pole

1 Kgs 6:23-29- temple had engraved cherubium, trees, flowers

1 Kgs 7:25-45- temple had bronze oxen, lions, pomegranates[/quote]

[popestpiusx]

There is an excellent book by St. John Damascene refuting the errors of iconoclasm, but I can't remember the name (nor can I find my copy). I think it is something simple like "On Divine Images". Also, Josef Pieper confronts (and destroys) the protestant/iconoclast/modernist mindset head-on in his masterpiece "In Tune With the World: A Theory of Festivity". I highly recommend both.

Edited March 18, 2004 by popestpiusx

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:51 AM'] There is an excellent book by St. John Damascene refuting the errors of iconoclasm, but I can't remember the name (nor can I find my copy). I think it is something simple like "On Divine Images". Also, Josef Pieper confronts (and destroys) the protestant/iconoclast/modernist mindset head-on in his masterpiece "In Tune With the World: A Theory of Festivity". I highly recommend both. [/quote]
Sweet! Those are both books I have hoped to read sometime before I do. Also that book by Cardinal Schonborn.. Whats it called again.. "God's Human Face: The Christ Icon"

[cathgirl]

If God gives someone the talent to draw and sculpt well, they are expected to glorify God with their gift. How else, but by drawing and sculpting images of holy things.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Dave' date='Mar 17 2004, 06:37 PM'] "Faith comes through hearing ..." . So how would one go about refuting that argument? [/quote]
Simple. If faith comes only through hearing, then ask the Protestant what use there is in reading the Bible!

[Jericho923]

plus it does not say "only through hearing"
What about the eyes of the soul? that is far beyond our physical understanding, who knows how many other things too!
Yes, Images break the commandments, but only when we make them into idols...and truly that is almost a contrdcition with the name image which refers to a Source of that image!

i used to date a very anti-catholic girl and she used to hit hard on the subject...her place of worship had nothing but white walls.
Almost as if you could not Praise God or be driven to Hom through the sense because they are part of our carnal being and thus they are sinful...scary Calvinistic theology...i say far from the message of Christ through physical suffering and carnal fasting!!!!
Viva el Catolicismo!
Good nithg to all. God is with us

[Homestarlover85]

Hmm, that is an interesting argument. Well actually its just a bad argurment for the role of images. The verse the person is quoting comes from Romans 10:17. But the verse they are quoting is incomplete

New American Version
" Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ"

What St. Paul is actually talking about is really about missioners. If you look in the context of the book he is talking about the spreading of the gospel. One way we can spread the Gospel is to know Christs' words.

So the verse he is quoting is completely irrelevant.

(This being my interpretation of the scripture, but take a look)

[ilovechrist]

i've had the argument about icons in the Church, which is kind of similar. in this case i told them to think about it this way --"we have pictures of deceased family members and friends, and people we look upto in our homes right? why not have pictures and statues of people we look to as friends and people we look upto in the Church?"... i dunno just an interesting suggestion.