Mother Mary

[Dusty Fro]

I'm not Catholic, and about the only thing that keeps me from being Catholic is the perception of Mary in the Catholic faith. Before you say anything, I realize how important this is to Catholics, and I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I'm just trying to understand. Here are some things I don't really get.

1. Mary's high place in Catholicism. I believe that she was indeed a blessed woman, shown by God choosing her to birth Christ. She's no God, for sure, but a vessel used for God's purpose, just like anyone else. I don't understand why the Rosary has so many Hail Marys, when there aren't any Hail Jesuses. Acknowledging her importance in bringing Jesus to earth, I can see, but I get lost on the rest.

2. Mary as mother. Maybe someone else can explain to me if Catholics really think of Mary as their holy mother, because that's just what I've heard. It seems to me that it would be equating her to the Father, which doesn't jive with me. Plus, she's not my mother. God's never sent her spirit to comfort me or anything. He sends the Holy Spirit, right?

Once again, I realize that this may look snotty, but I really don't know that much about Catholicism and I'm looking for someone to explain it to me.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Dusty, it doesn't sound snotty to me at all. The following quote is a step by step break down of the Hail Holy Queen (the prayer we say at the end of the Rosary), Aloysius posted this for Bro. Adam and I think it might serve to help you better understand why we turn to Mary as our Mother in Heaven.

[quote][b]Hail Holy Queen Hail[/b]- a greeting for one who you have greatly desired to speak to. the angel spoke this way too Luke 1:28 when speaking to Mary. Queen- in the davidic kingdom, the mother of the king was always seen as the queen. the roll of this queen is seen in 1 Kings 2:17, 20; 1 Kings 2:18; 1 Kings 2:19; 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Chron. 22:10; Neh. 2:6 Holy- the ark of the covenant was considered holy because it housed the word of God at one point, so too did Mary house the WORD of God. in 2 Chron. 8:11 it shows that even the places the ark has been to become holy just because the ark has been there, meaning the ark is holy. also, the power of the most high overshadowed her Luke 1:35 she is filled with grace and the Lord is with herLuke 1:28

[b]Mother of Mercy[/b] Jesus Christ is mercy. Mary is Jesus' mother, the mother of the Lord Luke 1:43 so Mary is MERCY's mother.

<repeat to emphasize something>[b]Mother of: mercy,Our Life, our sweetness, and our hope [/b]you see, it's Mother of the following four things: Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope. and in a special way, too then, she herself is our life, sweetness, and hope, she's those things by ASSOSIATION. because she raised mercy itself, we owe some gratitude to her for that very mercy. because she raised Him who is Our Life, because she brought Him into the world, we owe gratitude to her and in some way she takes on that attribute simply by her mothering Him who is our life, etc etc with the other two. Mary gave us hope by accepting Jesus Christ into her womb. Luke 1:38 all of these things combined seem to indicate holiness.

[b]to thee do we cry [/b]the ppl in a Davidic kingdom see the mother of the king, the Gebirah or Queen Mother, as one who intercedes on their behalf 1 Kings 2:18

[b]poor banished children of eve[/b] we were all born not into immortality in paradise, but because of eve's acceptence of the serpent and Adam's acceptance of his wife we were BANISHED from paradise. Genesis 3:17

[b]to thee do we lift up our sighs[/b] again: the ppl in a Davidic kingdom see the mother of the king, the Gebirah or Queen Mother, as one who intercedes on their behalf 1 Kings 2:18

[b]mourning and weeping in this valley of tears[/b].psalms do this kinda stuff all the time, and lamentations, and yeah, most of the OT, mourning over sinfulness, and over exile (as we were exiled from the Garden of eden). this is the whole point of prayer and fasting, it is a very good spiritual thing to mourn and weap over what offenses we cause to God.

[b]turn then, most gracious advocate[/b] again, the Davidic kingdom, the queen mother was always pleading to the king on behalf of her ppl. 1 Kings 2:18 i encourage you to read Scott Hahn's book, ironically enough, HAIL HOLY QUEEN

[b]thine eyes of mercy towards us[/b] this again has to do with the "Gebirah" again, the queen mother, so see again: 1 Kings 2:17, 20; 1 Kings 2:18; 1 Kings 2:19; 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Chron. 22:10; Neh. 2:6

[b]and after this our exile,[/b] we have been banished, exiled, out of paradise and God's presenceGenesis 3:17, by the woman and her seed shall we fight the one who banished us Genesis 3:16 by Jesus, the seed of the woman, we have the power to again be sons of God John 1:12 baptism saves us from our banishment 1 Peter 3:21 through the resurection, thus we may one day again enter the presence of God, those who do the will of the Heavenly Father will one day enter the presence of God again, paradise, HEAVEN Matthew 7:21

[b]show unto us the blessed fruit of they womb[/b], the angel refers to Jesus as the blessed fruit of Mary's womb Luke 1:28 and Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit Luke 1:41 also refers to Him as such Luke 1:42

[b]Jesus[/b] hehe, you cannot disagree with invoking His Holy Name in prayer

[b]Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweet Virgin Mary[/b] Virgin Mary- She pledged a life of virginity all her life, which was the only reason she was so shocked and didn't understand how she could bear a child without 'knowing man' Luke 1:34 it's not she hadn't yet known man, but she DOESN'T know man, that means past present and future. clement- loving- one who is filled with grace and most blessed of all women Luke 1:28 will be called blessed by every generation Luke 1:48 who heard the word of God and kept it as a model for all Luke 11:28 would of COURSE be loving, she is shown to be one of the greates of Jesus' disciples, she spent 30 years with Him hearing His message, so she must have gotten this message of love more than anyone. clement and sweet- same verses, blessed and grace-filled would of course produce a very sweet woman who is good and merciful, she spent thirty years with the one who is source of all mercy, don't you think a lil of His goodness, His sweetness, His love, at least rubbed off? she's in heaven, and those that stand before the Father are perfected Matthew 5:48

[b]Pray for us oh holy mother of God[/b] pray for us- intercession of the mother of the king again 1 Kings 2:17, 20; 1 Kings 2:18; 1 Kings 2:19; 1 Kings 15:13; 2 Chron. 22:10; Neh. 2:6 holy- 2 Chron. 8:11 Luke 1:28 Luke 1:35 mother of God- Luke 1:43

[b]that we may be found worthy of the promises of Christ[/b] first that we are unworthy servants Luke 17:10 then that we can be made worthy through Christ "by His wounds we are healed" Isaiah 53:5 He promised to heal us and to give us a light yoke Matthew 11:30 and He promised also that we would be persecuted Matthew 24:9 but that is a blessing Matthew 5:12 he gave the promise of eternal life John 3:16 if we do the will of His father Matthew 5:48; Matthew 7:21[/quote]

[Aloysius]

i think you're being very respectful, and i thank you for that.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=5421"]PhatMass Reference Section: MARY[/url]

also check out [url="http://www.scriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.scriptureCatholic.com[/url]

we believe that Mary is the ark of the new covenant. look at the parallel: the ark of the first covenant contained the word of God [i]Exodus 25:16[/i] and Jesus Christ is the word of God [i]John 1[/i] and the Jesus Christ, the word of God, was inside Mary [i]Luke 1:31[/i]

Check out the parallel in speaking about the two arks of God in [i]Luke 1:43[/i] then [i]2 Sam. 6:9[/i]

now, how was the ark of God treated? anyone who tried to defile it was struck down! [i]2 Sam. 6:7[/i]

anyway, as for Mary being our mother, [i]John 19:26[/i] clearly the literal meaning was that John was to care for Mary, but the meaning that transcends, the spiritual symbolic meaning for all Christians is that Mary is indeed the mother of all Christians.

as for pleading for her intercession: the mother of the king, or Gebirah, was always the queen in the old davidic kingdom [i]1 King 2:17, 20; 1 Kings 2:19; Psalms 45:9; 1 Kings 15:13[/i] and the queen mother was always the interceder in the davidic kingdom as well [i]1 Kings 2:18; Neh 2:6; St. John 2:7[/i] , and God promised us the new davidic kingdom on earth. [i] 2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14[/i] Jesus is the son of david [i]St. Matthew 1:1[/i] and will take the trone of david his father [i]Luke 1:32[/i]

[Aloysius]

hehe, thanx iceprincess, that will help too!

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote]
1. Mary's high place in Catholicism.  I believe that she was indeed a blessed woman, shown by God choosing her to birth Christ.  She's no God, for sure, but a vessel used for God's purpose, just like anyone else.  I don't understand why the Rosary has so many Hail Marys, when there aren't any Hail Jesuses.  Acknowledging her importance in bringing Jesus to earth, I can see, but I get lost on the rest.[/quote]

Mary is the most blessed among women, God created her sinless so that He might come down and take human form, born of a woman. Jesus' mom had to be perfect! We agree, she is not equal to God, but she IS better than the rest of us humans. Each Hail Mary points to Jesus, we ask Mary to pray for us, to bring us closer to the Blessed Fruit of her womb, Jesus. (I assume you know the words to the Hail Mary?) The words of the prayer come from the Bible.

[quote]2. Mary as mother.  Maybe someone else can explain to me if Catholics really think of Mary as their holy mother, because that's just what I've heard.  It seems to me that it would be equating her to the Father, which doesn't jive with me.  Plus, she's not my mother.  God's never sent her spirit to comfort me or anything.  He sends the Holy Spirit, right?[/quote]

Yes, we see Mary as our Mother. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ, correct? It logically follows that His mother would be our mother. Further, Jesus gave Mary to us as our mother when He died on the cross ("Behold your mother!" John 19:27). How do you know God hasn't sent her to you? She may be there by your side, with her mantle wrapped around you and you don't even know it--or m aybe she hasn't come because you haven't asked. Again, she is not equal to God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), we do not worship Mary as we worship God. Mary, to me, is similar to my own earthly mother, its just she's in heaven and has more pull (if you will) with God.

God chose her as the vessel in which to come down and humble Himself and take human form (hope I'm making sense here, it makes sense in my head....), He obeyed her, respected her, and all those things we do for our mothers. If God gives her that kind of honor and respect I think its perfectly acceptable that I do the same.

Thats my little explanation. Now someone else is going to come along and give a very eloquent, Scripture filled explanation that will put mine to shame. hehe

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]God's never sent her spirit to comfort me or anything. He sends the Holy Spirit, right?[/quote]


Scott Hahn "First Comes Love" page 136.

[quote]In the twentieth centry, St. Maximilan Kolbe, who was a martyred by the Nazis, spoke of a special relationship between the Holy Spirit and Mary, the Mother of Jesus. "They share,' he wrote, 'a single motherhood: the divine Maternity of love.' Mary is traditionally called the Immaculate Conception because from the moment of conception she was preserved from sin. Kolbe taught that this quality, too, was a reflection of the Holy Spirit, Whom he called the ' uncreated immaculate conception.' Mary he went on, 'was created on purpose to show by her virginal motherhood the presence of the Holy Spirit in her.' Kolbe was even bold to say that Mary was like an incarnation ('quasi-incarnatus') of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]


Another quote same book!

[quote]Another recent witness to these truths is St. Edith Stein, a Jewish convert and philospher who, like Kolbe died in a Nazi concentration camp. She wrote, 'In this womanhood devoted to the service of love, is there really a divine image? Indeed Yes.... Such love is properly the attribute of the Holy Spirit. Thus we can see the prototype of the feminine being in the Spirit of God poured over all creatures. It finds its perfect image in the purest Virgin who is the bride of God and mother of all mankind.[/quote]

Hope this helps!
God Bless You!

[St.FrancisofAssisi]

whats up my brother in Christ!!!! i personally am not offended by your zeal to understand why we, Catholics, HONOR Mary so much. I find it truely appealing that you come at this so calm, for some protestants get ugly about it.


Well.....First off, why do we pray the rosary....the rosary is not a means to pray to Mary, but to ask for her intercession. There are four mysteries that we meditate through while we pray the rosary...glorious mysteries, sorrowful mysteries, joyful mysteries, and the luminous mysteries. The mysteries are about the life of Jesus...going from his birth to his ressurection. The rosary is meant to be a meditation upon these mysteries, once again seeking the powerful intercession of mother Mary. The 'Hail Mary' comes from scripture....


Why do we call her 'mother' Mary?? Truely, she is our mother. Mary was there for a lot, not all, of Jesus' ministry, and Jesus listened to his mother. The Miracle at Canaa, Mary asked Jesus to turn the water into wine and he did. Jesus, who as we all know is GOD, obeyed what his mother said, so tjus that right there should tell us something. As christians we strive to be like Jesus and Jesus loved and honored Mary, so shouldn't we??? In the Gospel of John...(John 19:26-27) "When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold, your son.' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother.' And then from that hour the disciple took her into his home." The Church teaches us that when this happened Jesus officialy gave us Mary as our 'mother,' and for Mary we became her children.

I hope some of this can help you out. GOD BLESS you my christian brother.

IN CORDE MATRIS

[Brother Adam]

Dusty Fro,

If this is the only thing that is keeping you from being Catholic, you should probably read Scott Hahn's "Hail, Holy Queen".

I just started reading it and am already half way through. The book has blown me away. Literally. Unlike any other book I've read on the Bible- because everything he talks about comes STRAIGHT from the Holy Scriptures - AND it's Catholic. It's incredable. If I didn't know better, I'd think it was written by a protestant with how biblical it is. The typology in itself is...wow. You can PM or email Carson Weber from this board and he may be able to get you a copy at a discounted rate. He works for Scott Hahn.

The way that this Catholic doctrine is complamented by the scriptures is astounding. If this keeps up, I could easily end up Catholic by next Easter (2005).

[Livin_the_MASS]

Praise be to Jesus!!!
Bro Adam I meet him you would be blown away by the knowledge the Holy Spirit has given him. He is so good at scripture because he used to be a protestant.

Edited March 18, 2004 by Jason

[Dave]

Having met him before myself, I second that, Bro. Adam!

[Carson Weber]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 17 2004, 06:08 PM'] If this keeps up, I could easily end up Catholic by next Easter (2005). [/quote]
I'm willing to pay a pretty price to see the faces of the Baptistboard moderators when this happens.

BrotherAdam before.. :preacher:

BrotherAdam after..

[Brother Adam]

Yeah, I can see it now

"Devil! God-hater! Anti-Christ! You have foresaken the Bible for the traditions of men! You are fragile and don't know anything about the scriptures! You've never contributed anything positive to his board! You are weak in the faith. Your wife should divorce you!"

I've been called all those things on the BB in the past simply for clarifying Catholic Doctrine. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if I reconciled to the Catholic Church

[Ellenita]

Bro Adam, I've just finished reading Hail, Holy Queen - it's an amazing book isn't it? I just was staggered at how grounded in bible study it was - I absolutely think it should be obligatory for all protestants who question catholic belief about Mary......in fact it ought to be compulsory for everyone in RCIA!!!!

For anyone who has a protestant background, Scott Hahn's writing is a superb resource for understanding catholic belief, and he is such an accessible writer too.
Wonderful!

[phatcatholic]

dustyfro.............others have responded to your questions rather well..................do you have any other questions or comments?

holla back
phatcatholic

Edited March 18, 2004 by phatcatholic