Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760712' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:43 PM']I agree with you but I think true worship is a different issue. One can worship the same God while having some incorrect perceptions about Him. -Katie[/quote] Sadly, we do not agree. If one is a heretic it follows by definition that he is not Orthodox, which means that he cannot offer true worship. Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760714' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:45 PM']Orthodoxy means true glory, true praise, true worship. Thus, if a man truly worships God it means that he possesses the Orthodox faith of the Church. Now, a Muslim by definition does not possess the Orthodox faith of the Church, and so he does not offer true worship to God.[/quote] I don't disagree with that at all but, like I said, I think true worship and belief in God are not entirely the same. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760718' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:47 PM']I don't disagree with that at all but, like I said, I think true worship and belief in God are not entirely the same. -Katie[/quote] And I disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I think she means an imperfect worship not true worship in the fullness of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [i]Orthodoxa[/i] means both true glory and true opinion (i.e., belief), which means that you cannot separate true worship from true faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760719' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:47 PM']And I disagree with you.[/quote] Guess that's that then. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1760721' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:48 PM']I think she means an imperfect worship not true worship in the fullness of faith.[/quote] Faith and worship are indivisible wholes, thus one cannot have "pieces" of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760723' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:48 PM'][i]Orthodoxa[/i] means both true glory and true opinion (i.e., belief), which means that you cannot separate true worship from true faith.[/quote] Makes sense but then, wouldn't all unorthodox Christians, by that logic, not believe in the same Abrahamic God as those who are? -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760724' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:49 PM']Guess that's that then. -Katie[/quote] Yes, in my opinion you have embraced theological indifferentism, and I cannot follow you down that path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760729' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:51 PM']Yes, in my opinion you have embraced theological indifferentism, and I cannot follow you down that path.[/quote] Ok, but to clarify, I don't think I'm being indifferent. I have pointed out the many errors in teaching in Islam that I naturally do not believe add up to a religion that has the fullness of truth. However, I don't believe that it has NO truth whatsoever. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760728' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:50 PM']Makes sense but then, wouldn't all unorthodox Christians, by that logic, not believe in the same Abrahamic God as those who are? -Katie[/quote] That is a good question. Now it is important to understand the difference between discursive knowledge and experiential knowledge. Heretics (e.g., Calvinists), on certain issues, may have a conceptual understanding of a Christian doctrine, but alas they do not have a living experience of it, and it is only experiential knowledge (i.e., participation in God's own energy) that is salvific. That is why, as I said in a previous post, Calvinists do not offer true worship to God, because although they have a Trinitarian conception of Him, they do not have, nor can they have so long as they remain in heresy, an experiential encounter with the Tri-hypostatic God in worship. True worship and true faith, for the Church Fathers, are inseparably bound together. Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760735' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:55 PM']That is a good question. Now it is important to understand the difference between discursive knowledge and experiential knowledge. Heretics (e.g., Calvinists), on certain issues, may have a conceptual understanding of a Christian doctrine, but alas they do not have a living experience of it, and it is only experiential knowledge (i.e., participation in God's own energy) that is salvific. That is why, as I said in a previous post, Calvinists do not offer true worship to God, because although they have a Trinitarian conception of Him, they do not have, nor can they have so long as they remain in heresy, an experiential encounter with the Tri-hypostatic God in worship.[/quote] Does God detatch Himself completely in worship by those who earnestly [i]seek [/i] to worship Him even if their worship is misinformed and incomplete? -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760733' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:54 PM']Ok, but to clarify, I don't think I'm being indifferent. I have pointed out the many errors in teaching in Islam that I naturally do not believe add up to a religion that has the fullness of truth. However, I don't believe that it has NO truth whatsoever. -Katie[/quote] Sadly, we do not agree. I can never say that a Muslim offers true worship to God, for to say that would require that I apostatize from the Orthodox faith, and I cannot do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760740' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:58 PM']Does God detatch Himself completely in worship by those who earnestly [i]seek [/i] to worship Him even if their worship is misinformed and incomplete? -Katie[/quote] God, at the level of energy, permeates all of creation, for the cosmos exists in God (see Acts 17:28), and so He does not separate Himself from anything that has created existence. But human beings can separate themselves from God. In other words, it is those who do not offer true worship who have separated themselves from God, and not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760749' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:01 AM']God, at the level of energy, permeates all of creation, for the cosmos exists in God (see Acts 17:28), and so He does not separate Himself from anything that has created existence. But human beings can separate themselves from God. In other words, it is those who do not offer true worship who have separated themselves from God, and not the other way around.[/quote] But if they are in innocent ignorance, aren't they thereby unable from consciously separating themselves from God? -katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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