Vincent Vega Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760517' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:53 PM']Yes, it is a heresy to say that the Jews worship the God of Abraham, because although Rabbinic Judaism accepts the Old Testament, which is a valid revelation of God unlike the Quran, it has rejected the Father by rejecting His incarnate Son (see 1 John 2:23). As I said in an earlier post, Rabbinic Judaism is a Christian heresy, and so it follows that to say that Rabbinic Judaism is an expression of the Orthodox Faith is by its nature heretical.[/quote] So, is the covenant of God with the Jews no longer valid? The Jews formerly worshiped the God of Abraham, yes (OT-times)? At what point did they stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760557' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:12 PM']So, is the covenant of God with the Jews no longer valid? The Jews formerly worshiped the God of Abraham, yes (OT-times)? At what point did they stop?[/quote] The Covenant God made with Abraham is part of the New Covenant. There are not multiple ways to God. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and so to deny the Holy Trinity is to deny the true God. The only acceptable worship of God the Father, was given by His only-begotten Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit. No other worship, no other sacrifice, can bring everlasting life and beatitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760557' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:12 PM']So, is the covenant of God with the Jews no longer valid? The Jews formerly worshiped the God of Abraham, yes (OT-times)? At what point did they stop?[/quote] Rabbinic Judaism is not Biblical Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is a creation of the Rabbis about 50 years after the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ into heavenly glory. That said, the New Testament subsumes into itself all the previous covenants mentioned in the Old Testament. Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 As I said in the other thread: [i]Christianity is the fulfillment, i.e., the continuation of Biblical Judaism, while Rabbinical Judaism is a heresy, because it rejects faith in the Holy Trinity. Rabbinic Judaism is related to the Church, in the same way that the heresy of Adoptionism is related to the Church.[/i] As a further clarification: Only those who hold the Orthodox faith of the Church can offer true worship to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760568' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:17 PM']Rabbinic Judaism is not Biblical Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is a creation of the Rabbis about 50 years after the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ into heavenly glory. That said, the New Testament subsumes into itself all the previous covenants mentioned in the Old Testament.[/quote] To go back to what you were talking about in the other thread-I'm not extremely well versed in Islam, however, what I've read said, with regard to Allah being the cause of all things does not suggest that he does evil, but does cause "bad" things to happen that will have future good outcomes unable to be predicted by humans. While I do affirm Catholicism as the one true religion, I do believe that other religions have some "pieces" of the truth and that it is possible for persons of different faiths, including Muslims, to worship the same God of the Old Testament. Their belief is not complete, as ours is, however, I don't think it is a completely different God they're worshipping. Regarding heresy, could you clarify your definition, because, like I said, I was under the impression that one had to fulfill many conditions to be a heretic, the first being having to start off in the true Faith and reject it. -Katie Edited January 25, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 This post also may be helpful in this thread: [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760539' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:04 PM'][quote name='Hassan' post='1760534' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:03 PM'] If Biblical Judaism had survived the destruction of the Temple and were present today would they be worshiping the God of Abraham?[/quote] The temple has survived, because Christ is the true Temple of God, of which the building in Jerusalem was but a shadow.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760580' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:22 PM']While I do affirm Catholicism as the one true religion, I do believe that other religions have some "pieces" of the truth and that it is possible for persons of different faiths, including Muslims, to worship the same God of the Old Testament. Their belief is not complete, as ours is, however, I don't think it is a completely different God they're worshipping. Regarding heresy, could you clarify your definition, because, like I said, I was under the impression that one had to fulfill many conditions to be a heretic, the first being having to start off in the true Faith and reject it. -Katie[/quote] I concur with this. Is this to say, then, that no religion but Christianity has any of the Truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760580' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:22 PM']To go back to what you were talking about in the other thread-I'm not extremely well versed in Islam, however, what I've read said, with regard to Allah being the cause of all things does not suggest that he does evil, but does cause "bad" things to happen that will have future good outcomes unable to be predicted by humans.[/quote] Katie, I never said that you implied that Allah causes evil, please re-read my post in that thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760586' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:25 PM']Katie, I never said that you implied that Allah causes evil, please re-read my post in that thread.[/quote] [i]Read the creeds of the various schools of Islamic thought, they all hold that Allah causes both good and evil. Only the Mu'tazilites rejected the determinism of the Quran. [/i] This was what I was referring to. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760585' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:24 PM']I concur with this. Is this to say, then, that no religion but Christianity has any of the Truth?[/quote] To say that there are "pieces" of truth in other religions is not the point at issue. I have been quite specific in my posts: I am talking about true worship. The only acceptable worship of the Father was given by the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., do not offer true worship to God, nor does anyone who denies the dogma of the Holy Trinity. To say anything other than this is what is called the heresy of theological indifferentism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760589' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:27 PM'][i]Read the creeds of the various schools of Islamic thought, they all hold that Allah causes both good and evil. Only the Mu'tazilites rejected the determinism of the Quran. [/i] This was what I was referring to. -Katie[/quote] Katie, Did you write any of the creeds of the Islamic schools? It is Muslim theologians themselves who hold that Allah causes both good and evil. What you and I think about Islam is not really all that important, but what Muslim theologians say is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [i]Read the creeds of the various schools of Islamic thought, they all hold that Allah causes both good and evil. Only the Mu'tazilites rejected the determinism of the Quran[/i] No, even accecpting medeval Islamic theological schools as the be all and end all of Islamic thought we see Al-Ghazali, I assume we can both accecpt him as the most influential theologian and thinker in Islam particularly in medeval Islam, working out a more nuanced position. The Qur'an does make some statments that imply free will, but others that seem to affirm free will. Different Islamic thinkers have made different deductions from this. Some have absolutly deney human free will other don't, this thought looks at these verses like those in the Old Testament that imply simmilar things Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart.... Surah 2:6 God has sealed their hearts and their hearing and over their eyes is a veil; and awesome suffering awaits them. Muhammad Asad makes the following note A reference to the natural law instituted by God, whereby a person who persistently adheres to false beliefs and refuses to listen to the voice of truth gradually loses the ability to perceive the truth "so finially , as it were, a seal is set upon their heart" (Raghib). Since it is God who has instituted the laws of nature-which in their aggregate, are called sunnat Allah (the way of God)- this "sealing" is attributed to Him: but it is obviously a consequence of man's free choice and not an act of "predestination"....." Not to mention Shia' Islam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760590' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:28 PM']To say that there are "pieces" of truth in other religions is not the point at issue. I have been quite specific in my posts: I am talking about true worship. The only acceptable worship of the Father was given by the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit; thus, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., do not offer true worship to God, nor does anyone who denies the dogma of the Holy Trinity. To say anything other than this is what is called the heresy of theological indifferentism.[/quote] I'm not claiming that their worship is perfect. Their beliefs are essentially different on many points, as are the other religions you mentioned. I think they are worshipping God imperfectly, but the same God. Again, they cannot be heretics because they came about separate from the Church's truth in the first place, thus the did not consciously and in full knowledge reject it. -Katie ETA: Laughing at myself because I'm spending Saturday night debating Abrahamic religions and their relation to one another! Edited January 25, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760584' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:24 PM']This post also may be helpful in this thread: The temple has survived, because Christ is the true Temple of God, of which the building in Jerusalem was but a shadow.[/quote] ah, alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 25, 2009 Author Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760596' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:32 PM']I'm not claiming that their worship is perfect. Their beliefs are essentially different on many points, as are the other religions you mentioned. I think they are worshipping God imperfectly, but the same God. Again, they cannot be heretics because they came about separate from the Church's truth in the first place, thus the did not consciously and in full knowledge reject it. -Katie[/quote] Yes, this is what I'm saying as well. I'm using the word 'worship' loosely... Would it be correct to ask if they pray to the same God, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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