Apologetics For The Muslims

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760509' date='Jan 24 2009, 06:47 PM']Is it heresy to believe that Jews worship the God of Abraham?[/quote]
Yes, it is a heresy to say that the Jews worship the God of Abraham, because although Rabbinic Judaism accepts the Old Testament, which is a valid revelation of God unlike the Quran, it has rejected the Father by rejecting His incarnate Son (see 1 John 2:23). As I said in an earlier post, Rabbinic Judaism is a Christian heresy, and so it follows that to say that Rabbinic Judaism is an expression of the Orthodox Faith is by its nature heretical.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760512' date='Jan 24 2009, 06:49 PM']However as even he said the Judaism of Rabbatical Judaism is not the Judaism of the Bible. It's more a sister faith to Christianity than it's father.[/quote]
Christianity is the fulfillment, i.e., the continuation of Biblical Judaism, while Rabbinical Judaism is a heresy, because it rejects faith in the Holy Trinity.

Rabbinic Judaism is related to the Church, in the same way that the heresy of Adoptionism is related to the Church.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

True worship is found only in the Triadological faith of the Church. In other words, the only acceptable worship of the Father, was given by the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit; and this one oblation, this one act of worship, is forever perpetuated in the divine liturgy of the Church.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760517' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:53 PM']Yes, it is a heresy to say that the Jews worship the God of Abraham, because although Rabbinic Judaism accepts the Old Testament, which is a valid revelation of God unlike the Quran, it has rejected the Father by rejecting His incarnate Son (see 1 John 2:23). As I said in an earlier post, Rabbinic Judaism is a Christian heresy, and so it follows that to say that Rabbinic Judaism is an expression of the Orthodox Faith is by its nature heretical.[/quote]
I'm gonna start a new thread, so as to not derail this thread.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760522' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:55 PM']Christianity is the fulfillment, i.e., the continuation of Biblical Judaism, while Rabbinical Judaism is a heresy, because it rejects faith in the Holy Trinity.

Rabbinic Judaism is related to the Church, in the same way that the heresy of Adoptionism is related to the Church.[/quote]


If Biblical Judaism had survived the destruction of the Temple and were present today would they be worshiping the God of Abraham?

[Hassan]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760529' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:00 PM']I'm gonna start a new thread, so as to not derail this thread.[/quote]


good idea

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760534' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:03 PM']If Biblical Judaism had survived the destruction of the Temple and were present today would they be worshiping the God of Abraham?[/quote]
The temple has survived, because Christ is the true Temple of God, of which the building in Jerusalem was but a shadow.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760505' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:45 PM']To worship God involves worshipping the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit, and no other worship is acceptable to the true God.

Tink,

Is God a Trinity of persons or not?[/quote]

He is. I suppose it'd be more accurate to say that Allah and God in the person of the Father are the same. Their understanding is incomplete/unfulfilled just as the Jewish religion, but since Islam did not originate in the Catholic Church I don't think it can be a heresy. I thought a heresy pertained to a person/group that was once Catholic and rejected the Church after refusal to be corrected, which wouldn't pertain here.

St. Thomas (II-II, Q. xi, a. 1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760529' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:00 PM']I'm gonna start a new thread, so as to not derail this thread.[/quote]

Thanks and sorry Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760540' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:04 PM']He is. I suppose it'd be more accurate to say that Allah and God in the person of the Father are the same.[/quote]
I find that comment absolutely repugnant. The "god" of Islam is the held to be the cause of evil, and he is held to predestine everything that happens, and that is not the Father of Christ.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760540' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:04 PM']St. Thomas (II-II, Q. xi, a. 1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". -Katie[/quote]
St. Thomas is free to hold to whatever position he would like, but as I said, Aquinas' views, especially if they differ from the teachings of the Fathers, are irrelevant. Aquinas had absolutely no influence on the theology of the Eastern Churches.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760545' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:05 PM']I find that comment absolutely repugnant. The "god" of Islam is the held to be the cause of evil, and he is held to predestine everything that happens, and that is not the Father of Christ.[/quote]

Not exactly

but why don't we wait a moment for US to start a new thread ?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760548' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:07 PM']Not exactly

but why don't we wait a moment for US to start a new thread ?[/quote]
Read the creeds of the various schools of Islamic thought, they all hold that Allah causes both good and evil. Only the Mu'tazilites rejected the determinism of the Quran.

[Apotheoun]

Posted in error.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun