Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760471' date='Jan 24 2009, 05:57 PM']I thought that in order to commit heresy, one had to start off being Catholic? I understand that they can't know positively but I think the fact that they made a public statement on it means that they believe it with a good degree of certainty. I mean, there is the whole Abrahamic religion thing.[/quote] If the Magisterium were to issue a decree that required the faithful to definitively hold that Muslims worship the true God (i.e., require belief that Muslims offer true worship to God as a Catholic truth [i]de fide tenenda[/i]), which is something clearly not found in the deposit of faith, it follows that the Magisterium itself would have embraced a theological error, and the Christian faith would be overthrown. That said, if a person wishes to argue that the comments about Islam inserted into various documents issued at Vatican II have definitive theological status, although there is nothing about the Islamic religion in divine revelation, he would -- perhaps without knowing it -- be accusing the Magisterium of heresy. [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760471' date='Jan 24 2009, 05:57 PM']Btw re: Natural Law-how could the Natural Law objectively say that anyone worships the true God?[/quote] That is my point exactly. You see the Magisterium is limited in its authoritative decrees to what has been divinely revealed, and by what is contained in the natural law. Who Muslims worship is not contained in either of these categories. Thus, the opinion of the bishops at Vatican II has no substantive theological value. Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760471' date='Jan 24 2009, 05:57 PM']Btw re: Natural Law-how could the Natural Law objectively say that anyone worships the true God? Edit: OK, I tried to do some more research on the Natural Law so I'm assuming you mean as taught by Thomas Aquinas? I never knew it was specifically Catholic, I always just thought of the Locke, I think it was, stuff I learned back in Global in high school.[/quote] I am an Eastern Catholic, and so I do not subscribe to Scholastic theology (i.e., the theology of Aquinas and the other Schoolmen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760481' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:12 PM']If the Magisterium were to issue a decree that required the faithful to definitively hold that Muslims worship the true God (i.e., require belief that Muslims offer true worship to God as a Catholic truth [i]de fide tenenda[/i]), which is something clearly not found in the deposit of faith, it follows that the Magisterium itself would have embraced a theological error, and the Christian faith would be overthrown. That said, if a person wishes to argue that the comments about Islam inserted into various documents issued at Vatican II have definitive theological status, although there is nothing about the Islamic religion in divine revelation, he would -- without knowing it -- be accusing the Magisterium of heresy.[/quote] No, I'm not saying it was a categorical statement that requires everyone to believe it. By that same token, I don't think it's a meangingless thing to say, either. [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760481' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:12 PM']That is my point exactly. You see the Magisterium is limited in its authoritative decrees to what has been divinely revealed, and by what is contained in the natural law. Who Muslims worship is not contained in either of these categories. Thus, the opinion of the bishops at Vatican II has no substantive value.[/quote] I agree that they don't have the authority to make a quantitative statement. But it seems like the fact that we have the old testament as a "link" between Catholicism to Islam (and Judaism) does give Church scholars some room to speculate and come to plausible conclusions on the matter. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Is it heresy to believe that Muslims worship the God of Abraham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='sweens8403' post='1760237' date='Jan 24 2009, 02:22 PM']They claim to worship the God of Abraham. What did the Arabic people believe before AD 500-something when islam began? What's the best way to approach them?[/quote] RE: What the Arabic people believed. I'm not totally sure but I think there were many different beliefs going on throughout the Middle East. If I remember the little that I know about Islam correctly, he was sent to "correct" the misinterpretations and errors of Judaism and Christianity and kind of "reset" the teachings of the Old Testament in order. With that in mind, there must have been a good number of Christians and Jews, but I'm pretty sure there were also several various pagan religions. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760465' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:46 PM']Are they really theologically vacuous? I would think that they took a lot of time, studied, prayed a lot and gave careful consideration before putting this in writing in a document of Vatican II. I think that if they tried to discuss more complex teachings on Islam, I would have my doubts as to their ability to accurately interpret them within the precepts of Islam. However, I think a statement such as the universiality of the God of the old testament is a fairly general statement. Regarding the original question on apologetics-I do believe that many Muslims, not sure if this is official teaching just something that was told to me by someone who is married to a Muslim, recognize Jews and Christians as "people of the book" (the old testament) and consider Allah, Yahweh and the Christian God to be one in the same. I believe this, myself. This might be a good place to start. -Katie[/quote] It's more than Jews and Christian who can be "people of the book". The Qur'an does permit Muslim men to mary Jews and Christians but no other such persons like Sabiens or Hindus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760485' date='Jan 24 2009, 06:20 PM']Is it heresy to believe that Muslims worship the God of Abraham?[/quote] Yes, it is a heresy, because Muslims openly deny the dogma of the Trinity, and since they do that it follows that they do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and to hold that they do involves repudiating of the Christian faith. Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760489' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:26 PM']RE: What the Arabic people believed. I'm not totally sure but I think there were many different beliefs going on throughout the Middle East. If I remember the little that I know about Islam correctly, he was sent to "correct" the misinterpretations and errors of Judaism and Christianity and kind of "reset" the teachings of the Old Testament in order. With that in mind, there must have been a good number of Christians and Jews, but I'm pretty sure there were also several various pagan religions. -Katie[/quote] It is very difficult to say. Muhammad has brief contacts with Christians and Jews (accecpting Islamic tradition) but the overall climate was staunchly pagan not Christian or Jewish(again, accecpting Islamic tradition). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760497' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:32 PM']Yes, it is a heresy, because Muslims openly deny the dogma of the Trinity, and since they do that it follows that they do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and to hold that they do involves repudiating of the Christian faith.[/quote] Wait, would that put the drafters on Vatican II into heresy by your understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760497' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:32 PM']Yes, it is a heresy, because Muslims openly deny the dogma of the Trinity, and since they do that it follows that they do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and to hold that they do involves repudiating of the Christian faith.[/quote] If the Church has no authority to rule that they do not worship the true God, I would also assume that they do not have the authority to teach that they do not. Since there is no official teaching, I don't see how anyone can be heretical in believing (or not believing) that Muslims worship the same God as we do. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760465' date='Jan 24 2009, 05:46 PM']. . . a Muslim, recognize Jews and Christians as "people of the book" (the old testament) and consider Allah, Yahweh and the Christian God to be one in the same. I believe this, myself. This might be a good place to start. -Katie[/quote] Christianity is not a "religion of the book"; instead, Christianity is the religion of the living and incarnate Word of God. I agree with St. Bernard who so eloquently said: "May the Word which was in the beginning with God be made flesh of my flesh according to Thy word. May He, I entreat, be made to me, not a spoken word, to pass unheeded, but a word conceived that is, clothed in flesh which may remain. May He be to me not only audible to my ears, but visible to my eyes, felt by my hands, borne in my arms. [i]Let Him be to me not a mute and written word traced with dumb signs on lifeless parchments[/i], but an Incarnate, living Word vividly impressed in human form in my chaste womb by the operation of the Holy Ghost." [St. Bernard of Clairvaux, [i]Homily IV: The Annunciation, and the Blessed Virgin's Consent[/i]] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760502' date='Jan 24 2009, 06:39 PM']If the Church has no authority to rule that they do not worship the true God, I would also assume that they do not have the authority to teach that they do not. Since there is no official teaching, I don't see how anyone can be heretical in believing (or not believing) that Muslims worship the same God as we do. -Katie[/quote] To worship God involves worshipping the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit, and no other worship is acceptable to the true God. Tink, Is God a Trinity of persons or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760505' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:45 PM']To worship God involves worshipping the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit, and no other worship is acceptable to the true God. Tink, Is God a Trinity of persons or not?[/quote] Then how do Jews worship the same God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760497' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:32 PM']Yes, it is a heresy, because Muslims openly deny the dogma of the Trinity, and since they do that it follows that they do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and to hold that they do involves repudiating of the Christian faith.[/quote] Is it heresy to believe that Jews worship the God of Abraham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1760509' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:47 PM']Is it heresy to believe that Jews worship the God of Abraham?[/quote] well he said this. [i] The only "non-Christian" religion that the Magisterium can issue authoritative decrees on is Judaism, and that is only because of the valid revelation (i.e., the Old Testament) that forms the foundation of that religious system. P.S. - I put the term non-Christian in scare quotes because Rabbinic Judaism is not really a non-Christian religion; instead, it is an early Christian heresy. In fact, that is why the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews is an agency within the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. [/i] So perhapse he was saying that with regard to religions except Judaism? However as even he said the Judaism of Rabbatical Judaism is not the Judaism of the Bible. It's more a sister faith to Christianity than it's father. EDIT: I reread it, and if you see that first part of his answer I think that clears things up. Edited January 25, 2009 by Hassan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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