Apologetics For The Muslims

[sweens8403]

They claim to worship the God of Abraham. What did the Arabic people believe before AD 500-something when islam began? What's the best way to approach them?

[Hassan]

[quote name='sweens8403' post='1760237' date='Jan 24 2009, 02:22 PM']They claim to worship the God of Abraham. What did the Arabic people believe before AD 500-something when islam began? What's the best way to approach them?[/quote]
Firstly that’s not just their claim, the Second Vatican Council has recognized that they do. Islam as a whole has not been confronted with the same aggressive secularism as Christianity. This sort of tight dogmatic cocoon combined with a distinctly fideist streak within much of mainstream Islamic thought makes it not to likely that you would succeed amongst observant Muslims. Also as “Christianity” has become more conflated in the Islamic world with “Western Imperialism” you’d find it tough even amongst individuals who are more nominally Muslim. I think it was G.K. Chesterton who said that the greatest argument for Christianity was Christians acting like Christians (something like that). I’d give the same advice as I did for Judaism, just following the best principals of Christianity and having an open exchange is probably your best bet. I’d recommend reading books about Islam to understand the Islamic paradigm but unfortunately in America most of the popular books about Islam are either simple minded polemics or lackluster books that are apologetics for Islam. Any book by Shabbir Akhtar is good for understanding contemporary Islamic thought and it’s strength and weaknesses. Also “Deliverance from Error” by Al Ghazali (Islam’s Aquinas) to understand sort of Islamic Fideism. I mean you can obviously o for the obvious, the ahistorical and unscientific claims of the Qur’an however I doubt this will work because(a) Such an antagonistic approach will most likely only lead to hostility and them simply finding counter apologetics and (b) the same problem lies with the Bible. Also introduce
them to the Christian paradigm, they have a very different understanding of revelation than you.

[tinytherese]

I haven't read any of these books myself but maybe they will be helpful.

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[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760303' date='Jan 24 2009, 12:29 PM']Firstly that’s not just their claim, the Second Vatican Council has recognized that they do.[/quote]
The Second Vatican Council has no special competence as it concerns Islamic worship.

The Magisterium of the Church is limited to making authoritative decrees dealing with divine revelation and the natural law.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760350' date='Jan 24 2009, 05:12 PM']The Second Vatican Council has no special competence as it concerns Islamic worship.

The Magisterium of the Church is limited to making authoritative decrees dealing with divine revelation and the natural law.[/quote]

I didn't say it did Lumen Gentium, however, is a document of the Second Vatican Council which I believe does state that Muslims worship the same one God, albeit imperfectly, with Catholics. Obviously you know more about this than I do and so I hope my comments are not taken to mean anything more than what they literally say, that the Second Vatican Council made this claim. If I have misunderstood things I'd be happy to be corrected.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760404' date='Jan 24 2009, 04:24 PM']I didn't say it did Lumen Gentium, however, is a document of the Second Vatican Council which I believe does state that Muslims worship the same one God, albeit imperfectly, with Catholics. Obviously you know more about this than I do and so I hope my comments are not taken to mean anything more than what they literally say, that the Second Vatican Council made this claim. If I have misunderstood things I'd be happy to be corrected.[/quote]
Who Muslims worship is not something that the Magisterium can determine with any authority. Thus, the statements made by the bishops at Vatican II on Islam are theologically vacuous.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760404' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:24 PM']I didn't say it did Lumen Gentium, however, is a document of the Second Vatican Council which I believe does state that Muslims worship the same one God, albeit imperfectly, with Catholics. Obviously you know more about this than I do and so I hope my comments are not taken to mean anything more than what they literally say, that the Second Vatican Council made this claim. If I have misunderstood things I'd be happy to be corrected.[/quote]
The "imperfectly "part is so far removed from Christian thought to make it doubtful that a description of Allah corresponds in a meaningful way to God almighty.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760410' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:39 PM']Who Muslims worship is not something that the Magisterium can determine with any authority. Thus, the statements made by the bishops at Vatican II on Islam are theologically vacuous.[/quote]


I guess I'm a bit confused where you draw the line. I mean the Vatican has the authority to say if Protestants worship the same God as Catholics right? They can look at what doctrin they accecpt about God and agree that it is in line with the Catholic doctrin correct? Moreover why would the Vatican make such a ruling if they obviously don't have the authority to?

[Apotheoun]

The only "non-Christian" religion that the Magisterium can issue authoritative decrees on is Judaism, and that is only because of the valid revelation (i.e., the Old Testament) that forms the foundation of that religious system.

P.S. - I put the term [i]non-Christian[/i] in scare quotes because Rabbinic Judaism is not really a non-Christian religion; instead, it is an early Christian heresy. In fact, that is why the [i]Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews[/i] is an agency within the [i]Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity[/i].

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1760414' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:42 PM']The "imperfectly "part is so far removed from Christian thought to make it doubtful that a description of Allah corresponds in a meaningful way to God almighty.[/quote]


Does the same hold for Jews? I mean Jews have a very different notion of God in mind but the Vatican also, and I assume you agree here, says they still worship the same God even if imperfectly.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760423' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:54 PM']The only "non-Christian" religion that the Magisterium can issue authoritative decrees on is Judaism, and that is only because of the valid revelation (i.e., the Old Testament) that forms the foundation of that religious system.

P.S. - I put the term [i]non-Christian[/i] in scare quotes because Rabbinic Judaism is not really a non-Christian religion; instead, it is an early Christian heresy. In fact, that is why the [i]Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews[/i] is an agency within the [i]Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity[/i].[/quote]

ok, well that makes sense.

I have some other questions but let's stop here so this thread does not get off track, I'll make a thread so other can add their thoughts in a bit. Thanks for the clarification.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Hassan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760422' date='Jan 24 2009, 04:52 PM']I guess I'm a bit confused where you draw the line. I mean the Vatican has the authority to say if Protestants worship the same God as Catholics right? They can look at what doctrin they accecpt about God and agree that it is in line with the Catholic doctrin correct? Moreover why would the Vatican make such a ruling if they obviously don't have the authority to?[/quote]
Protestantism, although heretical, is founded upon a valid revelation of God (i.e., the Bible), while also accepting the dogmas of the divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. That said, a baptized Protestant who worships the tri-hypostatic God is a Christian, even if he is in schism (and possibly even in heresy on certain points of doctrine) from the Church established by Christ.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760410' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:39 PM']Who Muslims worship is not something that the Magisterium can determine with any authority. Thus, the statements made by the bishops at Vatican II on Islam are theologically vacuous.[/quote]

Are they really theologically vacuous? I would think that they took a lot of time, studied, prayed a lot and gave careful consideration before putting this in writing in a document of Vatican II. I think that if they tried to discuss more complex teachings on Islam, I would have my doubts as to their ability to accurately interpret them within the precepts of Islam. However, I think a statement such as the universiality of the God of the old testament is a fairly general statement.

Regarding the original question on apologetics-I do believe that many Muslims, not sure if this is official teaching just something that was told to me by someone who is married to a Muslim, recognize Jews and Christians as "people of the book" (the old testament) and consider Allah, Yahweh and the Christian God to be one in the same. I believe this, myself. This might be a good place to start. -Katie

Edited January 25, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760465' date='Jan 24 2009, 05:46 PM']Are they really theologically vacuous? I would think that they took a lot of time, studied, prayed a lot and gave careful consideration before putting this in writing in a document of Vatican II. I think that if they tried to discuss more complex teachings on Islam, I would have my doubts as to their ability to accurately interpret them within the precepts of Islam. However, I think a statement such as the universiality of the God of the old testament is a fairly general statement.

Regarding the original question on apologetics-I do believe that many Muslims, not sure if this is official teaching just something that was told to me by someone who is married to a Muslim, recognize Jews and Christians as "people of the book" (the old testament) and consider Allah, Yahweh and the Christian God to be one in the same. I believe this, myself. This might be a good place to start. -Katie[/quote]
Who Muslims worship is not a part of divine revelation, nor is it a part of the immutable natural law. That said, the bishops present at Vatican II, no matter how intelligent many of them were, were not able to say authoritatively that Muslims worship the true God. In fact, since Islam explicitly rejects the dogma of the Trinity, such a comment, if mistakenly taken as definitive, would be heretical.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760469' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:53 PM']Who Muslims worship is not a part of divine revelation, nor is it a part of the immutable natural law. That said, the bishops present at Vatican II, no matter how intelligent many of them were, were not able to say authoritatively that Muslims worship the true God. In fact, since Islam explicitly rejects the dogma of the Trinity, such a comment, if mistakenly taken as definitive, would be heretical.[/quote]

I thought that in order to commit heresy, one had to start off being Catholic? I understand that they can't know positively but I think the fact that they made a public statement on it means that they believe it with a good degree of certainty. I mean, there is the whole Abrahamic religion thing. -Katie

Btw re: Natural Law-how could the Natural Law objectively say that anyone worships the true God? Edit: OK, I tried to do some more research on the Natural Law so I'm assuming you mean as taught by Thomas Aquinas? I never knew it was specifically Catholic, I always just thought of the Locke, I think it was, stuff I learned back in Global in high school.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Tinkerlina