MithLuin Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 It can be cause for scandal though (that wonderful catch-all). I am sure they will hammer out what is or is not necessary for full reconcilliation, and I assume that conversation will focus a lot more on the authority of bishops than on opinions on the Holocaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 it's not immoral to believe 9/11 was a conspiracy of the US government, it's just wrong. Same with the holocaust thing; you've got to understand the motives behind it (not liking the Shoah-business/Holocaust-industry lobby in the world) and then see the pseudo-facts they have fallen for and realize, they've just fallen into a wrong particular belief about a particular action of history. someone being wrong about the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust should not be offensive, it should be the beginnng of an historical debate with such a person or a brush off of "they're just ignorant/stupid". I have Irish ancestry, and there are tons of people who deny the British government's culpability for the attempted genocide of the Irish people (in the Potato Famine), but I can't get them thrown in jail over it, and I can't ruin their reputation for it. what is different here? it's a wrong historical opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I have Irish ancestry, and there are tons of people who deny the British government's culpability for the attempted genocide of the Irish people (in the Potato Famine), but I can't get them thrown in jail over it, and I can't ruin their reputation for it. what is different here? it's a wrong historical opinion. [/quote] It's wrong historical opinion and, like denying the Holocaust, denying the British government's terrible disregard for the sanctity of human life during the potato famine, has moral resonance. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 +J.M.J.+ moving to the debate table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1760711' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:42 PM']+J.M.J.+ moving to the debate table [/quote] Thanks -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Well I somehow knew we could not just be happy and welcome our Prodigal brethren home. That we would act something like the elder son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doe-jo Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760709' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:42 PM']It's wrong historical opinion and, like denying the Holocaust, denying the British government's terrible disregard for the sanctity of human life during the potato famine, has moral resonance. -Katie[/quote] I see what you're saying but still. He doesn't support what the Nazis did or what happened during the holocaust. He's just wrong historically. His numbers are wrong and that's it. He doesn't even deny that it happened. He believes it happened but he doesn't think it's as bad as everyone thinks and of course, he is wrong. The holocaust was terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1760746' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:59 PM']Well I somehow knew we could not just be happy and welcome our Prodigal brethren home. That we would act something like the elder son.[/quote] I think the issue here is that there is some unease, given some of the errant teachings of the SSPX. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doe-jo Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760748' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:01 PM']I think the issue here is that there is some unease, given some of the errant teachings of the SSPX. -Katie[/quote] I wouldnt say "the SSPX" since it's only Bishop Williamson that holds the holocaust position. It's his personal opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760709' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:42 PM']I have Irish ancestry, and there are tons of people who deny the British government's culpability for the attempted genocide of the Irish people (in the Potato Famine), but I can't get them thrown in jail over it, and I can't ruin their reputation for it. what is different here? it's a wrong historical opinion. It's wrong historical opinion and, like denying the Holocaust, denying the British government's terrible disregard for the sanctity of human life during the potato famine, has moral resonance. -Katie[/quote] no, ignorance or false beliefs about historical events is not a moral problem; I guarantee you you probably have something wrong about history, likely you believe the accepted version of events in this or that past event, but that accepted version of events is actually wrong; you might even inadvertantly be denying some atrocity yourself; it would be based on ignorance because those are the facts you studied and came to believe through the prism of those who taught you; Williamson has studied a skewed version of events and facts and came to a wrong conclusion. are there moral implications for those who believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories? why? becaus they don't accept the official version of events despite the evidence put out by the officials because of evidence they percieve they have found? come on now. give people a break. they get tricked by things that can often be quite convincing and compelling... when I was discussing 9/11 conspiracies with people and I went to the actual sites where people described the evidence they had seen, well, it was pretty compelling; but then the other side had compelling de-bunks... but I could see the road that would lead me to believing 9/11 conspiracy theories and it was a decently intellectually honest road... it's the same thing... if you go read the report which has convinced Bishop Williamson that those gas chambers could not have been used to kill so many Jews, you'd see it seems convincing at first. sometimes dealing with people who have opinions you vehemently disagree with requires a bit of humility, sometimes you have to think "but for the grace of God go I"... and on matters of historical events it is not that hard to believe the possibility that an official version of events might not be true, you could find yourself believing something wrong about history but everyone knows that victors write history and just doubting the official version of events and believing some contrary body of evidence is morally wrong in your mind. there is freedom of intellectual argument over the issue; people are free to hold stupid opinions or wrong opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 So long as we focus on the negative, the negative is all we will see. Yes, the SSPX has it's problems. Yet it has been right about a great many things namely, The Holy Mass of the Extraordinary Form. Since their beginning they have stated again and again that Mass was never abolished and they or any priest had the right to offer it. For many years they we're insulted on this issue. Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum Pontificum justified the SSPX stance. It would have been nice for us to only focus on the happiness of the return of our brethren. Instead we have acted like the elder brother and debated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1760758' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:07 AM']no, ignorance or false beliefs about historical events is not a moral problem; I guarantee you you probably have something wrong about history, likely you believe the accepted version of events in this or that past event, but that accepted version of events is actually wrong; you might even inadvertantly be denying some atrocity yourself; it would be based on ignorance because those are the facts you studied and came to believe through the prism of those who taught you; Williamson has studied a skewed version of events and facts and came to a wrong conclusion. are there moral implications for those who believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories? why? becaus they don't accept the official version of events despite the evidence put out by the officials because of evidence they percieve they have found? come on now. give people a break. they get tricked by things that can often be quite convincing and compelling... when I was discussing 9/11 conspiracies with people and I went to the actual sites where people described the evidence they had seen, well, it was pretty compelling; but then the other side had compelling de-bunks... but I could see the road that would lead me to believing 9/11 conspiracy theories and it was a decently intellectually honest road... it's the same thing... if you go read the report which has convinced Bishop Williamson that those gas chambers could not have been used to kill so many Jews, you'd see it seems convincing at first. sometimes dealing with people who have opinions you vehemently disagree with requires a bit of humility, sometimes you have to think "but for the grace of God go I"... and on matters of historical events it is not that hard to believe the possibility that an official version of events might not be true, you could find yourself believing something wrong about history but everyone knows that victors write history and just doubting the official version of events and believing some contrary body of evidence is morally wrong in your mind. there is freedom of intellectual argument over the issue; people are free to hold stupid opinions or wrong opinions.[/quote] I'm not saying he's a malicious person-of course I realize that people can easily be deluded and that no one's perception of history is entirely accurate. However, that wouldn't change the fact that I am concerned about publically minimzing a well documented and fairly recent atrocity. I understand what you're saying but I do think there are some potentially scary consequence of his belief. If he believed and made known that he thought the earth were flat-fine, that's a stupid but harmless thing to say. However, I don't think that the beliefs he publically holds about the Holocaust are harmless. And this, on their webiste, adds to my concern: [url="http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/jews_guilty_of_deicide.htm-Katie"]http://www.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/jews_gui...icide.htm-Katie[/url] Edited January 25, 2009 by Tinkerlina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 (edited) Being legitimately wrong about something that happened doesn't necessarily mean anything about your moral character. Let's look at this on a smaller scale. Let's say that two of my friends got in a fight, Sue and Jack. I heard about this second hand, but since I wasn't there, I have to rely on information from other people. Pretend I talked to two of my other friends; Person A and Person B. Person A believes that Sue is wrong, and Person B believes that Jack is wrong. If I knew all the facts, it's clear that Sue is grossly wrong here, however Person B is extremely good at presenting his case. His reasons are much more compelling than Person A's are. Person B may indeed be directly lying to me right now, it really doesn't matter. If, with the two views presented, I believe him, it doesn't mean that I'm somehow morally lacking. To clarify though, I'm not supporting what this particular bishop may believe. Just pointing this out. EDIT: [quote]I'm not saying he's a malicious person-of course I realize that people can easily be deluded and that no one's perception of history is entirely accurate.[/quote] You posted that while I was writing, so my bad. Edited January 25, 2009 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1760705' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:39 PM']you've got to understand the motives behind it (not liking the Shoah-business/Holocaust-industry lobby in the world) and then see the pseudo-facts they have fallen for and realize, they've just fallen into a wrong particular belief about a particular action of history.[/quote] Someone reading Norman Finkelstein? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1760770' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:14 AM']Being legitimately wrong about something that happened doesn't necessarily mean anything about your moral character. Let's look at this on a smaller scale. Let's say that two of my friends got in a fight, Sue and Jack. I heard about this second hand, but since I wasn't there, I have to rely on information from other people. Pretend I talked to two of my other friends; Person A and Person B. Person A believes that Sue is wrong, and Person B believes that Jack is wrong. If I knew all the facts, it's clear that Sue is grossly wrong here, however Person B is extremely good at presenting his case. His reasons are much more compelling than Person A's are. Person B may indeed be directly lying to me right now, it really doesn't matter. If, with the two views presented, I believe him, it doesn't mean that I'm somehow morally lacking. To clarify though, I'm not supporting what this particular bishop may believe. Just pointing this out. EDIT: You posted that while I was writing, so my bad. [/quote] It's OK-I understand and again, I don't think there's bad intent on his part-it's the consequences of what people who might latch on to this aspect of his publically held views might take this. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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