Sspx Excommunications Lifted!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760457' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:32 PM']I will criticize [i]anyone[/i] who would mislead people in such a dangerous way. Even if his views on the holocaust do not represent the SSPX, I think they should try to correct him. Additionally, I don't understand how a person who has been excommunicated can be a bishop. -Katie[/quote]

You must still respect their episcopal office. If you read the decree from the Holy See you will notice not even they deny the four Bishops episcopal consecration. (Last sentence of the second paragraph)

It was how they went about being consecrated that got them excommunicated, now that has been lifted. Whilst they were always bishops, they now deserve more respect to their office since their excommunications have been lifted.

There have been many liberal minded officials in the Church that have said or done far more dangerous things, yet public criticism is typically the wrong way to go about it because it dishonors the office they hold. Here on Phatmass many of the conservative minded folk who have forgotten that, have been reminded by the mods.

SSPX may have it's troubles it may have many troubles, but we as catholics must still respect the office the four SSPX Bishops hold.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1760487' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:24 PM']You must still respect their episcopal office. If you read the decree from the Holy See you will notice not even they deny the four Bishops episcopal consecration. (Last sentence of the second paragraph)

It was how they went about being consecrated that got them excommunicated, now that has been lifted. Whilst they were always bishops, they now deserve more respect to their office since their excommunications have been lifted.

There have been many liberal minded officials in the Church that have said or done far more dangerous things, yet public criticism is typically the wrong way to go about it because it dishonors the office they hold. Here on Phatmass many of the conservative minded folk who have forgotten that, have been reminded by the mods.

SSPX may have it's troubles it may have many troubles, but we as catholics must still respect the office the four SSPX Bishops hold.[/quote]

Still don't understand how it is possible to be an excommunicated bishop. In any case, I think that anyone, in any walk of life, who is a Holocaust denier and makes their views publically known, should not be surprised when criticism comes his/her way... -Katie

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1760487' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:24 PM']You must still respect their episcopal office. If you read the decree from the Holy See you will notice not even they deny the four Bishops episcopal consecration. (Last sentence of the second paragraph)

It was how they went about being consecrated that got them excommunicated, now that has been lifted. Whilst they were always bishops, they now deserve more respect to their office since their excommunications have been lifted.

There have been many liberal minded officials in the Church that have said or done far more dangerous things, yet public criticism is typically the wrong way to go about it because it dishonors the office they hold. Here on Phatmass many of the conservative minded folk who have forgotten that, have been reminded by the mods.

SSPX may have it's troubles it may have many troubles, but we as catholics must still respect the office the four SSPX Bishops hold.[/quote]

So if one criticizes the individual they are automatically criticizing the office? You can still have respect for the office (i.e. the Presidency) without much appreciating the individual (i.e. the President).

[doe-jo]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1760421' date='Jan 24 2009, 04:48 PM']I was reading on Fr. Z's blog ([url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/01/some-thoughts-about-the-sspx-rome-and-unity/#comment-108340"]in his combox comments[/url]) that the situation about attending SSPX masses has not changed.[/quote]
I think he's talking about receiving communion. SSPX masses are valid but illicit. I was just going to go to mass but not receive communion. I can't receive anyway. I have to go to confession .

[quote]Points 1 and 3 in our letter of 27 September 2002 to this correspondent are accurately reported. His first question was "Can I fulfill my Sunday obligation by attending a Pius X Mass" and our response was:

"1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X."

His second question was "Is it a sin for me to attend a Pius X Mass" and we responded stating:

"2. We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why. If your primary reason for attending were to manifest your desire to separate yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him, it would be a sin. If your intention is simply to participate in a Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin."[/quote]
[url="http://www.unavoce.org/articles/2003/perl-011803.htm"]http://www.unavoce.org/articles/2003/perl-011803.htm[/url]

[quote]“Concretely, this means that the Masses offered by the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are valid, but illicit, i.e., contrary to Canon Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony, however, require that the priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have proper faculty to absolve, the Church supplies these faculties so that the sacrament is valid (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 144)[/quote]
[url="http://www.summorumpontificum.net/2008/07/q-with-pced-about-sspx-schism-and.html"]http://www.summorumpontificum.net/2008/07/...schism-and.html[/url]

So what happens to the SSPX now that their bishops are not excommunicated anymore? Are the priests going to have faculties in dioceses that have SSPX chapels?

[doe-jo]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760494' date='Jan 24 2009, 06:29 PM']Still don't understand how it is possible to be an excommunicated bishop. In any case, I think that anyone, in any walk of life, who is a Holocaust denier and makes their views publically known, should not be surprised when criticism comes his/her way... -Katie[/quote]
An excommunicated priest is still a priest. Once a priest always a priest. No difference with bishops.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='doe-jo' post='1760511' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:49 PM']An excommunicated priest is still a priest. Once a priest always a priest. No difference with bishops.[/quote]

But if the Church isn't in full communion with the Pope, wouldn't they be rejecting their office? -Katie

[Roamin'Catholic]

Hey lets all just be thankful that world Jewry is up in a tizzy about this whole thing. [i]Generally[/i] when they get upset it means the Catholic church has done something positively Catholic.
They've spent 2000 years trying to destroy the Catholicism- their uproar has less to do with Bishop Williamson's nutty views on the Holocaust and more to do with their opposition to any person or group that is committed to promoting orthodox Catholicism.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' post='1760543' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:05 PM']Hey lets all just be thankful that world Jewry is up in a tizzy about this whole thing. [i]Generally[/i] when they get upset it means the Catholic church has done something positively Catholic.
They've spent 2000 years trying to destroy the Catholicism their uproar has less to do with Bishop Williamson's nutty views on the Holocaust and more to do with their opposition to any person or group that is committed to promoting orthodox Catholicism.[/quote]

That is, um, kind of offensive. I'd be upset if I were them. -Katie

Edited January 25, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Dave]

[quote name='doe-jo' post='1760510' date='Jan 24 2009, 09:47 PM']So what happens to the SSPX now that their bishops are not excommunicated anymore? Are the priests going to have faculties in dioceses that have SSPX chapels?[/quote]

Since SSPX priests are suspended, the suspensions would have to be lifted before faculties could be granted.

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760550' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:08 PM']That is, um, kind of offensive. I'd be upset if I were them. -Katie[/quote]

As long as its only kind of offensive, I'm ok with it.

[philothea]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760520' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:54 PM']But if the Church isn't in full communion with the Pope, wouldn't they be rejecting their office? -Katie[/quote]
The sacrament of holy orders is a permanent thing, licit or not, excommunicated or not. The unique ability ordained bishops have is to confer holy orders on others. Priests can't do that.

Once you have a bishop you have the power of a whole independent, self-sustaining branch of the Church. Which is why it's such a big deal to go ordaining bishops when you've been told not to, and why this whole schism started in the first place.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' post='1760556' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:11 PM']As long as its only kind of offensive, I'm ok with it. [/quote]

The Holocaust happened in very recent history. I can absolutely understand why Jewish people would be upset at the prospect of the Vatican "un" excommunicating the SSPX bishops given the fact that one of them denies the Holocaust. -Katie

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='philothea' post='1760560' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:13 PM']The sacrament of holy orders is a permanent thing, licit or not, excommunicated or not. The unique ability ordained bishops have is to confer holy orders on others. Priests can't do that.

Once you have a bishop you have the power of a whole independent, self-sustaining branch of the Church. Which is why it's such a big deal to go ordaining bishops when you've been told not to, and why this whole schism started in the first place.[/quote]

Thanks for the explanation. It's a confusing matter, to say the least. -Katie

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Dave' post='1760552' date='Jan 24 2009, 10:09 PM']Since SSPX priests are suspended, the suspensions would have to be lifted before faculties could be granted.[/quote]

I still wouldn't go to a SSPX mass yet; that won't be allowed until the "discussions/talks" that were mentioned in the decree take place between the Vatican and the SSPX establishing the SSPX's jurisdiction. Once this occurs then you could begin attending SSPX masses. But the question is interesting: what will the SSPX's jurisdiction be?? Will they be like the FSSP and have agreements with local bishops for the establishment and operation of chapels with Catholic diocese? Some have argued that the SSPX would be opposed to this as they would not want to be under the authority of a local "modernist" bishop. These folks have argued that the Vatican would establish the SSPX as "personal prelature" and the SSPX would essentially circumvent the local bishop and their "chain of command" would go directly to the Vatican. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I figure the details will be worked out in the next 6-18 months. Until then, go to FSSP and Institute of Christ the King masses or if none are available, go to an ordinary form mass.

[doe-jo]

[quote name='philothea' post='1760560' date='Jan 24 2009, 07:13 PM']The sacrament of holy orders is a permanent thing, licit or not, excommunicated or not. The unique ability ordained bishops have is to confer holy orders on others. Priests can't do that.

Once you have a bishop you have the power of a whole independent, self-sustaining branch of the Church. Which is why it's such a big deal to go ordaining bishops when you've been told not to, and why this whole [b]schism[/b] started in the first place.[/quote]
You mean excommunications? because the SSPX is not a schismatic group.