Hassan Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1763857' date='Jan 27 2009, 06:57 PM']Except we're right and they aren't. [/quote] Nope, I'm right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1764211' date='Jan 27 2009, 10:38 PM']indeed. My presence here shows it has already begun [/quote] No, it began when Mohammed marched an army across North Africa, slaughtering those in his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses' Alt Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) Actually it was the successive Caliphs that conquered beyond Arabia methinks, Mohammad died before that. Edited January 28, 2009 by Galloglasses' Alt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 [quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1764782' date='Jan 28 2009, 03:19 PM']Actually it was the successive Caliphs that conquered beyond Arabia methinks, Mohammad died before that.[/quote] Yeah, I think I overstated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1763006' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:19 PM']I don't quite follow you here In a republican government the populace at large should set the bounds of free speech. Perhaps not speaking certain ideas does add to their mystery, however a lack of prohibition did not protect six million Jews particularly well either. I don't understand this. We've doing it right now. Even when we lack formal laws there are implicit social mores that no politician dare cross. Well, for three hundred years we've been able to navigate those admittedly dangerous waters pretty well.[/quote] The reason I don't think you understand my point is that you tried to break up my post into several points. It was only one point: no one has the authority to censure people. If you censure ideas, the only one who will be able to voice their opinion without backlash will be the most powerful in society who will also be the ones who can manipulate the masses. Your point of navigating the waters i believe is invalid. We haven't navigated the waters because we said everyone has a right to freedom of expression (notice it is not an expression of one's ideas to yell fire in a crowded theatre b/c that is not an idea but an action). As for your Jews example, people did speak out against it and they were censured (in that they were either sent to the death camps, killed upon apprehension, or forced to flee) by the government who had the most power as well as by the majority of the people who decided to go along with the Nazi's. In my understanding it was not the freedom of expression/ideas that harmed the Jews in Germany but rather it was the censuring of ideas deemed "harmful" by a regime and the people (one can see this in the massive book burnings that Germans organized). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1760073' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:31 AM']What a shameful thing to say. And where is your proof of these accusations? The man was stabbed to death and decapitated in the street like an animal FOR MAKING A MOVIE. A movie in which he defends women against oppressive Islam. For THAT, he deserved what he got??????????? No one deserves that. But again, I'd like to see the proof for such outlandish accusations.[/quote] I didn't know saying that "he asked for what he got" was equivalent to saying he deserved what he got. Someone who says racist and bigoted things, can only expect that people are going to get mad at him and some may even threaten his life. Van Gogh's career in angering islamic people goes much deeper then his one movie that you cited. I don't think that he deserved to die, nobody does. But there are some people where its understandable why someone would get angry enough to kill them, and Van Gogh was one of those people. Free speech is fine but you have to be willing to accept the consequences of what you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Formosus' post='1766207' date='Jan 29 2009, 10:15 PM']I didn't know saying that "he asked for what he got" was equivalent to saying he deserved what he got. Someone who says racist and bigoted things, can only expect that people are going to get mad at him and some may even threaten his life. Van Gogh's career in angering islamic people goes much deeper then his one movie that you cited. I don't think that he deserved to die, nobody does. But there are some people where its understandable why someone would get angry enough to kill them, and Van Gogh was one of those people. Free speech is fine but you have to be willing to accept the consequences of what you say.[/quote] No. In a civilized society, death is not the consequence of free speech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 I never said he was killed by members of a civilized society. He understood that and still choose to say those things. The fact is that this sort of stuff happens in our own country. Yeah sure it doesn't often happen to well known people, but it does indeed happen in this country. He said some racist stuff, and he was killed because of the anger and hatred he had built up. Actions have consequences, even if the consequence is the result of someone's choice to sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Formosus' post='1766239' date='Jan 29 2009, 10:34 PM']I never said he was killed by members of a civilized society. He understood that and still choose to say those things. The fact is that this sort of stuff happens in our own country. Yeah sure it doesn't often happen to well known people, but it does indeed happen in this country. He said some racist stuff, and he was killed because of the anger and hatred he had built up. Actions have consequences, even if the consequence is the result of someone's choice to sin.[/quote] Do you have statistics of people dying in this country as a result of free speech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 No but I can guarantee that if one looked into the matter you will find all sorts of murders over that issue. I would even argue that is why Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1764730' date='Jan 28 2009, 03:21 PM']No, it began when Mohammed marched an army across North Africa, slaughtering those in his way.[/quote] Muhammad did not expand out of Arabia. The Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphs took north africa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1764787' date='Jan 28 2009, 04:22 PM']Yeah, I think I overstated.[/quote] lol, just a little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Formosus' post='1766261' date='Jan 29 2009, 10:46 PM']No but I can guarantee that if one looked into the matter you will find all sorts of murders over that issue. I would even argue that is why Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered in this country.[/quote] Feel free to come up with statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 So do you want to deny that Martin Luther King Jr. was killed because of he spoke out against injustice and someone didn't like it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 [quote name='Formosus' post='1766846' date='Jan 30 2009, 05:02 PM']So do you want to deny that Martin Luther King Jr. was killed because of he spoke out against injustice and someone didn't like it?[/quote] You claimed all sort of people were murdered in the US over free speech, I asked for stats. Pointing out one death is not quite the same, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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