Man Drives Suv Into Planned Parenthood Clinic

[MithLuin]

Am I a pacifist?

I am at the very least not a violent anarchist.

I draw a distinction between military might wielded by a legitimate state power and privately produced mayhem.

Soldiers = Terrorists = Batman =



It is hard to argue against glue in the locks. It's such minor damage, and if you are willing to go to jail for vandalism over it, hey.....

Edited January 27, 2009 by MithLuin

[havok579257]

[quote name='sweens8403' post='1762939' date='Jan 26 2009, 08:47 PM']We have repeatedly said that we are not talking about killing abortion "doctors" or their support staff.
We have repeatedly said that we are not talking about killing abortion "doctors" or their support staff.
We have repeatedly said that we are not talking about killing abortion "doctors" or their support staff.

What we are discussing is the destruction of their tools and facilities. So, what's the problem with sabotage?

I still say a quick way to screw up their operations for a day or so with minimal actual property damage is to put glue in all the locks of the clinic.[/quote]


does that accomplish anything really? won't the women just return the next day to get abortions?

[sweens8403]

It gives them at least one extra day to consider what they're doing. Not all women would change their minds, but at least a few would.

[foolishmortal]

Shooting your gun to stop one from being killed by a redneck or gangbanger is different than killing abortionists in that the latter's killing is lawful.

We need to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. I still say we should, unless it's lying, get hired as a front desk person and be very rude to customers. It definitely would not be lying in any way for a non-regular protester woman to go in with a man, who is also not a regular. The woman can go into the room, start screaming and run out. Clever tactics that are morally permissable is the way to do it.




[quote name='havok579257' post='1762988' date='Jan 26 2009, 09:49 PM']does that accomplish anything really? won't the women just return the next day to get abortions?[/quote]

[Socrates]

God forbid a Planned Parenthood [i]door[/i] be damaged in the fight against abortion! Horrors!

I'd object to this action not because it was immoral, but because it was useless. Damaging actual abortion equipment would be much more effective. And he probably made a mess of the paint job on his vehicle in the process.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1763008' date='Jan 26 2009, 09:23 PM']God forbid a Planned Parenthood [i]door[/i] be damaged in the fight against abortion! Horrors!

I'd object to this action not because it was immoral, but because it was useless. Damaging actual abortion equipment would be much more effective. And he probably made a mess of the paint job on his vehicle in the process.[/quote]
Property is property. Doesn't matter whose it is, you don't have the right to damage another's private property.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1763048' date='Jan 26 2009, 10:25 PM']Property is property. Doesn't matter whose it is, you don't have the right to damage another's private property.[/quote]
Right. Forgot you aren't the church burning sort of atheist.

I also don't see anything morally wrong with petty vandalism. On the other hand, do you think that maybe we're more valuable talking, rather than that.
Vandalize their doors, or even their equipment, and at best you shut them down for a few days. Tops.
Maybe in the day or two that the clinic is shut down, one or two women will think about it a bit longer and decide against it. At best.
...but then you're probably going to jail. Maybe not at first, but if you do it more than once, eventually you'll have a criminal record.
Instead of that waste of time, why not campaign. Talk to people. Make speeches and signs and start demonstrations. Who knows how many people you could change. We have no idea, but I'll bet if you worked at it, you'd get a heck of a lot more than one or two, and likely no criminal record.

Blowing up an abortion clinic makes a statement, to be sure. A very strong statement. In the end though, I think the effect is limited. On top of that, it'll harden some people against us. If that weren't enough, no matter how careful you are, innocent people are in danger. Look at the eco-terrorists who blew up that logging mill. Sorry I can't source that, but long story short, innocent people were killed.

I'd say campaigning on the front lines is more effective in the long run. Less spectacular, and you won't feel as vindicated, but I think it's more effective.

[MithLuin]

Precisely. The methods employed by the [url="http://www.diogh.org/RespectLife/gabrielproject.htm"]Gabriel Project[/url] and the [url="http://www.sistersoflife.org/apostolates.html"]Sisters of Life[/url] are more likely to be effective, because rather than trying to make it difficult to get an abortion, they try to make it more managable to have a baby. A woman who has just found out she's pregnant has all sorts of emotions to deal with. Even if she is happily married and really wants to start a family, she might be pretty scared or ambivalent. Add to that a difficult relationship or financial or family situation, and the fears surrounding pregnancy are much more debilitating.

Nobody [i]wants[/i] to have an abortion. It's not a fun thing to do. True, some people think it is no big deal, but if there were someone there to listen and help them out, maybe women would make different choices. (Not [i]all[/i] women - but certainly some.)

It is easier to blow up a building than evangelize a country. But the commission Jesus gave us was to spread the gospel.

[sweens8403]

Yes, y'all are probably right. The problem with the chap driving his vehicle into the clinic is that the pro-death/indifferent/pro-life folks don't care how morally neutral something like that is. All they see is bad PR.

[Hilde]

There was also a German guy who crashed into a church roof, probably an accident, though.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1763316' date='Jan 27 2009, 08:53 AM']Precisely. The methods employed by the [url="http://www.diogh.org/RespectLife/gabrielproject.htm"]Gabriel Project[/url] and the [url="http://www.sistersoflife.org/apostolates.html"]Sisters of Life[/url] are more likely to be effective, because rather than trying to make it difficult to get an abortion, they try to make it more managable to have a baby. A woman who has just found out she's pregnant has all sorts of emotions to deal with. Even if she is happily married and really wants to start a family, she might be pretty scared or ambivalent. Add to that a difficult relationship or financial or family situation, and the fears surrounding pregnancy are much more debilitating.

Nobody [i]wants[/i] to have an abortion. It's not a fun thing to do. True, some people think it is no big deal, but if there were someone there to listen and help them out, maybe women would make different choices. (Not [i]all[/i] women - but certainly some.)

It is easier to blow up a building than evangelize a country. But the commission Jesus gave us was to spread the gospel.[/quote]

See, this seems to be similar to the logic that liberals employ in electing pro-choicers; that rather than making the woman's choice illegal, an environment should be fostered in which the choice for abortion is inhibited.

[picchick]

One question about this situation for those for destroying abortion clinics and killing abortionists: How many of you did it? How many of you are going to go out today and follow through on your support? Are you just supporting other people doing it or are you going to do it yourself?

Am I willing to be arrested for the cause? Sure.

Concentration Camps: If we stood outside with a protest what would happen? Greater means was necessary.

Abortion Clinics: I have never rammed into abortion clinics. I have never killed anyone. Have I done other things? I have seen abortion clinics shut down from prayers and fasting and peaceful demonstration. So...I don't know.

There are a lot of thoughts running through my head right now. So I don't know.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1762968' date='Jan 26 2009, 09:22 PM']Am I a pacifist?

I am at the very least not a violent anarchist.

I draw a distinction between military might wielded by a legitimate state power and privately produced mayhem.[/quote]So there is no such thing as a legitimate revolution?

[Winchester]

[quote name='foolishmortal' post='1763007' date='Jan 26 2009, 10:21 PM']Shooting your gun to stop one from being killed by a redneck or gangbanger is different than killing abortionists in that the latter's killing is lawful.

We need to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. I still say we should, unless it's lying, get hired as a front desk person and be very rude to customers. It definitely would not be lying in any way for a non-regular protester woman to go in with a man, who is also not a regular. The woman can go into the room, start screaming and run out. Clever tactics that are morally permissable is the way to do it.[/quote]
I believe you mean "former." So for you, what is declared legal by the state is "lawful" and may not be opposed by violent means.

But that idea is a very good one. Very good, indeed.

[Ziggamafu]

I'm still baffled as to why the destruction of an baby-murdering facility necessarily implies the intent to kill those inside. I don't know where people read that into the posts...there was a single aside that brought up the idea that even IF a person were accidentally killed, one would have to question why the principle of double-effect could not be employed.