Man Drives Suv Into Planned Parenthood Clinic

[Winchester]

[quote]The problem comes when one life is taken so another can live[/quote]
Like if I shot someone trying to kill my daughter.

Yeah. Horrible. I would be such a scumbag.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1762362' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:55 PM']Like if I shot someone trying to kill my daughter.

Yeah. Horrible. I would be such a scumbag.[/quote]


i never said you would be a scumbag. But go ahead and take this completly out of context. You seem to do that a lot.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1762349' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:41 PM']I did respond to your woodchipper scenario. If you will look upthread, you will see.

Your talk of 'collateral damage' reminds me of McVeigh's description of the deaths of the children at the Okalahoma City bombing. He thought he had a legitimate beef with the government, and that blowing up a gov't building was a legitimate way to retaliate.

We executed him and the guy in Florida who killed the doctor at an abortion clinic.

I really don't much see the difference.[/quote]


1. Please read a post carefully before assuming it is directed at or about you; not all posts are. My previous post specifically quoted Havok. Thanks.

2. Please read my posts carefully before implying the assumption that I have advocated the killing of innocent people. I think you will find that everything I have posted has been directed at saving innocent people. Moreover, I have not even advocated the bombing of empty abortion clinics. I have merely asked [i]questions [/i]regarding the legalized slaughter of babies and the sanctioning of profit made by the torturous murders of these children. Any minor assertions that I have made have been in the context of a question and further clarifying that question. I have not declared a "side" in this taboo controversy.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1762353' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:46 PM']What I like even more is that when I first asked a question, you didn't answer me but asked a question yourself. Then when I ask another question- the same thing you did, you accuse me of not answering your questions. Pot----kettle---black.

Also driving the robbers and theifs out of the temple and destroying their equipment is one thing. Killing them is another.

If people want to do to abortion clinics what Jesus did in the temple, more power to them. They can do that. The problem comes when one life is taken so another can live. Jesus loves all of his children. He does not put some above others, but see's us all as his flock. Remember, the abortionist can repent for all his evils on his death bed and get to heaven. Also by that contrast, the child saved could grow up to be an Atheist and an abortionist. We can now know how either of these 2 people will turn out. It is NOT our lot in life to judge others and judge their deeds. That is soley up to our Lord and Savior. If we kill a human being because we believe we are justified, how are we an different than the abortionists? In the end we have murdered one of our Lord's flock.

Jesus killing would have went against his message that he was preaching, your right. Although what of the message we are trying to preah on his behalf? One of crazy religious zeloting or one of hope, love, faith and trying to convert sinners to the one true way.

Our Pope does not advocate violence against another human being to stop abortions. So why should we go against his advice. Last I thought, he was more spiritually guided than us.[/quote]


1. The "unanswered" question you refer to was not, in fact, unanswered. You answered it yourself in that very post and I therefore assumed it was rhetorical:

[quote]Try to look at it like this. Our Pope, Bishop's, arch bishop's and on and so on... would they bomb abortion clincs?[b] [u]So[/u] if they are not doing it[/b] and they are here to help guide us throughout life, why should we strive for a way of doing something that they themselfs would not do?[/quote]

2. Why do you consistently post as if there is a justified presumption that every attack on an abortion facility would involve the deliberate intention to kill the people within it?

3. Before the Groom was incarnate and celebrating with his Bride (during which time there was no fasting amongst his disciples because it would be inappropriate) God both ordered and tolerated the death penalty for offenses far less horrific than abortion. After Christ's Ascension, the Church recognized that there would be both occasions for justified fasting and the justified use of the sword. The peaceful Jesus in the Gospels is the same as the vengefully just God of the Old Testament; furthermore, consider the words of Christ in St. John's Revelation - certainly not one to be trifled with. I bet Ananias and Sapphira weren't thinking about a passivist Jesus or a passivist Church when Peter's words struck them dead. The Crusades were probably the only reason we are not now speaking in Arabic. Etc.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
getting moved to the Debate Table.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1762375' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:12 PM']i never said you would be a scumbag. But go ahead and take this completly out of context. You seem to do that a lot.[/quote]
Not out of context. You were sloppy in your language. I pointed that out. Scumbag is just dressing. Stop blaming me for your foul ups.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1762423' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:06 PM']1. The "unanswered" question you refer to was not, in fact, unanswered. You answered it yourself in that very post and I therefore assumed it was rhetorical:[/quote]
There is a real problem with his question, anyway: ordained priests refrain from combat as a rule. Their actions mean nothing. The fact that they have personally on occasions spoken out against such actions would be relevant.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1762448' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:30 PM']Not out of context. You were sloppy in your language. I pointed that out. Scumbag is just dressing. Stop blaming me for your foul ups.[/quote]


Nowhere did I even make a correlation between someone defending their own children to being a scumbag. Your once AGAIN just adding stuff to try and make your point sound more valid. But go ahead and blame everyone else when you jump to conclusions.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1762423' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:06 PM']1. The "unanswered" question you refer to was not, in fact, unanswered. You answered it yourself in that very post and I therefore assumed it was rhetorical:



2. Why do you consistently post as if there is a justified presumption that every attack on an abortion facility would involve the deliberate intention to kill the people within it?

3. Before the Groom was incarnate and celebrating with his Bride (during which time there was no fasting amongst his disciples because it would be inappropriate) God both ordered and tolerated the death penalty for offenses far less horrific than abortion. After Christ's Ascension, the Church recognized that there would be both occasions for justified fasting and the justified use of the sword. The peaceful Jesus in the Gospels is the same as the vengefully just God of the Old Testament; furthermore, consider the words of Christ in St. John's Revelation - certainly not one to be trifled with. I bet Ananias and Sapphira weren't thinking about a passivist Jesus or a passivist Church when Peter's words struck them dead. The Crusades were probably the only reason we are not now speaking in Arabic. Etc.[/quote]

2. WHat? Is that not what we are talking about? Ok, I am lost now.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1762453' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:31 PM']There is a real problem with his question, anyway: ordained priests refrain from combat as a rule. Their actions mean nothing. The fact that they have personally on occasions spoken out against such actions would be relevant.[/quote]


so should i now jump to the conclusion that you think none of our priests actions mean anything?

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1762470' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:44 PM']Nowhere did I even make a correlation between someone defending their own children to being a scumbag. Your once AGAIN just adding stuff to try and make your point sound more valid. But go ahead and blame everyone else when you jump to conclusions.[/quote]No, you used sloppy language. Even in context. Your views are not presented coherently, in spite of your many, many words. I took your statement and put it to a logical conclusion, giving you the opportunity to refine your argument. You can do that and learn to communicate better, or you can continue pretend I've jumped to a conclusion.

A similar thing happened in another thread, wherein you completely misinterpreted the sentences, switched placenames and generally sowed utter confusion. You're moving too quickly. Slow down, read and develop your ideas in response to what people take from them. Currently, you've been sidetracked into character assassination by a few simple words of mine.

How delicious.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1762477' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:47 PM']so should i now jump to the conclusion that you think none of our priests actions mean anything?[/quote]
You [i]shouldn't[/i] but you might. I am being quite specific in pointing out the flaw in his question and then pointing out the better way of making the point he was attempting to make.

Slow down.

[MithLuin]

Sorry; I like people to pay attention to me , but maybe I should learn to listen more than I talk sometimes.

My Timothy McVeigh comment (which, you will note, neither asked a question nor condemned you personally of anything) was in response to this post:

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1761120' date='Jan 25 2009, 09:24 AM']Empty, of course. However, I think you are incorrect in your assessment of the situation. The intent is to destroy the facility, not the people. The deaths of any Nazis there would be both unwilled and unintentional - again, similar to the bomber who flies over enemy territory and drops a bomb on a munition supply site surrounded by innocent people. The deaths of the people (evil effect) are not means to the good end of the supply site's destruction; and the effects are simultaneously caused by the morally neutral action (dropping a bomb).

Again, I still see no justifiable position (from Church teaching) against the actions of the bomber. All I see is a taboo subject that makes us afraid of what the secularists will think of us or to do us for even talking about it.[/quote]

It isn't that there is a specific Church teaching that says 'thou shall not bomb buildings belonging to evil men,' it's that it's hard to get from the gospel to 'so I should bomb the building.' Your example from a war is just that - a [i]war[/i]. Can an individual citizen justly wage war? I do not think so. When they do so, they are rightly called terrorists. Dropping a bomb is not morally neutral in most circumstances.

[quote]Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

For,
"ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS,
AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS.
THE GRASS WITHERS,
AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,
BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER "
And this is the word which was preached to you.


1 Peter 1: 13-25[/quote]

But if you start with the advice of scripture on how to live a Christian life, and take this message to heart, I really don't think you are going to end up building bombs in your basement. This -- being holy -- doesn't lead to that -- building bombs to exact your own personal justice.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1762687' date='Jan 26 2009, 05:29 PM']But if you start with the advice of scripture on how to live a Christian life, and take this message to heart, I really don't think you are going to end up building bombs in your basement. This -- being holy -- doesn't lead to that -- building bombs to exact your own personal justice.[/quote]So you are a pacifist.

[sweens8403]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1762353' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:46 PM']Also driving the robbers and theifs out of the temple and destroying their equipment is one thing. Killing them is another.[/quote]


We have repeatedly said that we are not talking about killing abortion "doctors" or their support staff.
We have repeatedly said that we are not talking about killing abortion "doctors" or their support staff.
We have repeatedly said that we are not talking about killing abortion "doctors" or their support staff.

What we are discussing is the destruction of their tools and facilities. So, what's the problem with sabotage?

I still say a quick way to screw up their operations for a day or so with minimal actual property damage is to put glue in all the locks of the clinic.

Edited January 27, 2009 by sweens8403