Man Drives Suv Into Planned Parenthood Clinic

[Nihil Obstat]

It's good to keep in mind that Jesus wasn't a revolutionary.
Seems to me that going around blowing up abortion clinics, no matter the intentions and beliefs you have, would be somewhat on par with extreme liberation theology.

[sweens8403]

If you wanted to do something I suppose you could put glue in the key slots to the all the doors of the clinic to lock people out.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1760635' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:00 PM']With the double effect principle there is also the fact that the good enacted must take place prior to or at the same time as any evil taking place. The reason, it seems to me, this wouldn't work in regards to bombing a facility with doctors in it is that the good taking place (prevention of future abortions) takes place after the undesired death of the doctor and possibly any women and children within the building at the time it is bombed.

Now... blowing up an empty clinic on the other hand could be a different story. It seems to me that this might even be justifiable. Although again my gut reaction is for some reason "no you can't".

I'm not sure if you were referring to bombing full or empty buildings.[/quote]

Empty, of course. However, I think you are incorrect in your assessment of the situation. The intent is to destroy the facility, not the people. The deaths of any Nazis there would be both unwilled and unintentional - again, similar to the bomber who flies over enemy territory and drops a bomb on a munition supply site surrounded by innocent people. The deaths of the people (evil effect) are not means to the good end of the supply site's destruction; and the effects are simultaneously caused by the morally neutral action (dropping a bomb).

Again, I still see no justifiable position (from Church teaching) against the actions of the bomber. All I see is a taboo subject that makes us afraid of what the secularists will think of us or to do us for even talking about it.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1760781' date='Jan 25 2009, 12:18 AM']It's good to keep in mind that Jesus wasn't a revolutionary.
Seems to me that going around blowing up abortion clinics, no matter the intentions and beliefs you have, would be somewhat on par with extreme liberation theology.[/quote]

Jesus was the greatest spiritual revolutionary of all time. And Jesus will, on the Last Day, be the greatest temporal revolutionary of all time. Jesus was not a temporal revolutionary during his time here because of his mission of sacrifice, hence the Messianic Secret. But he knew that what he left behind would cause temporal revolutions by the Church throughout all of history. Hence his references to sending a sword and admonishments that whoever doesn't have one should buy one. Jesus is also the guy who kicked over tables and drove moneychangers out of the temple with a whip. There is a difference between liberation theology on the one extreme and pacifism on the other extreme. Liberation theology is as little connected to this topic as it is to dropping a bomb on a munitions supply in the other analogy.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1761122' date='Jan 25 2009, 08:33 AM']Jesus was the greatest spiritual revolutionary of all time. And Jesus will, on the Last Day, be the greatest temporal revolutionary of all time. Jesus was not a temporal revolutionary during his time here because of his mission of sacrifice, hence the Messianic Secret. But he knew that what he left behind would cause temporal revolutions by the Church throughout all of history. Hence his references to sending a sword and admonishments that whoever doesn't have one should buy one. Jesus is also the guy who kicked over tables and drove moneychangers out of the temple with a whip. There is a difference between liberation theology on the one extreme and pacifism on the other extreme. Liberation theology is as little connected to this topic as it is to dropping a bomb on a munitions supply in the other analogy.[/quote]


Kicking over tables and killing people are two completly different things.

Try to look at it like this. Our Pope, Bishop's, arch bishop's and on and so on... would they bomb abortion clincs? So if they are not doing it and they are here to help guide us throughout life, why should we strive for a way of doing something that they themselfs would not do?

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1762108' date='Jan 26 2009, 02:04 AM']Kicking over tables and killing people are two completly different things.

Try to look at it like this. Our Pope, Bishop's, arch bishop's and on and so on... would they bomb abortion clincs? So if they are not doing it and they are here to help guide us throughout life, why should we strive for a way of doing something that they themselfs would not do?[/quote]

Would Jesus approve of saving children from being thrown into wood-chippers by any morally good (or at least morally neutral) means necessary?

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]Just to defend us minnesotains!

We are ALL crazy!
[/size]

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1762253' date='Jan 26 2009, 08:06 AM']Would Jesus approve of saving children from being thrown into wood-chippers by any morally good (or at least morally neutral) means necessary?[/quote]


what would Jesus do in this situation? would jesus bomb this abortion clinic?

[T-Bone _]

I cannot believe that I actually said that.

Edited January 26, 2009 by T-Bone _

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1762289' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:09 PM']what would Jesus do in this situation? would jesus bomb this abortion clinic?[/quote]

The Temple was a place for spiritual healing; when Christ saw people sanctioning its use for thievery, he drove them out with a whip and destroyed their facilities of operation (the changing tables).

Hospitals are places for physical healing; if Christ saw people sanctioning its use for murder, I have no doubt that he would drive them out and destroy their equipment.

Again, Jesus was not a temporal revolutionary during his time here because it would have compromised his greater mission; however, he will be a temporal revolutionary on the Last Day and in the meantime, the Church indeed teaches the moral acceptability of defending life by any morally good or neutral means necessary - even when that may involve an unintended double effect.

By the way: funny that instead of responding to my questions you dodge by asking more questions.

For your reference, here are my questions:

[quote]If you walk down a street and notice a mother taking her three year old by hand and lifting her up into a wood-chipper, do you have a moral right to stop the murder from taking place by any means necessary? Or are you morally restricted to prayer, while you walk by? Now what if the government legalized the practice of throwing children into wood-chippers and businesses sprung up to serve that purpose for a fee? Where is the disconnect between this and the legalized opportunities for entrepreneurial baby-murder?

Would Jesus approve of saving children from being thrown into wood-chippers by any morally good (or at least morally neutral) means necessary?

Is fear of our image and the repercussions toward our religious rights really worth our whistling dixy as we walk by the toddler being thrown into the wood chipper?

Do we not have a right to - by any and all means - stop the murder of our children?[/quote]

Finally, please take note that I have never advocated the killing of anyone - nor have I even advocated bombing the baby-slaughtering facilities - but have rather asked questions. What are your answers?

Edited January 26, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[Winchester]

If they were executing 1 year olds, would violent means be justified?

[MithLuin]

I did respond to your woodchipper scenario. If you will look upthread, you will see.

Your talk of 'collateral damage' reminds me of McVeigh's description of the deaths of the children at the Okalahoma City bombing. He thought he had a legitimate beef with the government, and that blowing up a gov't building was a legitimate way to retaliate.

We executed him and the guy in Florida who killed the doctor at an abortion clinic.

I really don't much see the difference.

[thessalonian]

The difference is that we HAVE CLEAR AND DISTINCT EVIDENCE THAT THE LIVES OF BABIES ARE BEING TAKEN. Again I am not advocating taking matters in to our own hands on this. I just agree with zig that I find it hard to condemn this man. Escpecially from his position working with premies in hospitals and (his mental stability problems being noted) hearing their cries as they lay in dumpsters. This is not really that far off reality even if coming from one who has some issues with reality.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1762306' date='Jan 26 2009, 11:45 AM']The Temple was a place for spiritual healing; when Christ saw people sanctioning its use for thievery, he drove them out with a whip and destroyed their facilities of operation (the changing tables).

Hospitals are places for physical healing; if Christ saw people sanctioning its use for murder, I have no doubt that he would drive them out and destroy their equipment.

Again, Jesus was not a temporal revolutionary during his time here because it would have compromised his greater mission; however, he will be a temporal revolutionary on the Last Day and in the meantime, the Church indeed teaches the moral acceptability of defending life by any morally good or neutral means necessary - even when that may involve an unintended double effect.

By the way: funny that instead of responding to my questions you dodge by asking more questions.

For your reference, here are my questions:



Finally, please take note that I have never advocated the killing of anyone - nor have I even advocated bombing the baby-slaughtering facilities - but have rather asked questions. What are your answers?[/quote]


What I like even more is that when I first asked a question, you didn't answer me but asked a question yourself. Then when I ask another question- the same thing you did, you accuse me of not answering your questions. Pot----kettle---black.

Also driving the robbers and theifs out of the temple and destroying their equipment is one thing. Killing them is another.

If people want to do to abortion clinics what Jesus did in the temple, more power to them. They can do that. The problem comes when one life is taken so another can live. Jesus loves all of his children. He does not put some above others, but see's us all as his flock. Remember, the abortionist can repent for all his evils on his death bed and get to heaven. Also by that contrast, the child saved could grow up to be an Atheist and an abortionist. We can now know how either of these 2 people will turn out. It is NOT our lot in life to judge others and judge their deeds. That is soley up to our Lord and Savior. If we kill a human being because we believe we are justified, how are we an different than the abortionists? In the end we have murdered one of our Lord's flock.

Jesus killing would have went against his message that he was preaching, your right. Although what of the message we are trying to preah on his behalf? One of crazy religious zeloting or one of hope, love, faith and trying to convert sinners to the one true way.

Our Pope does not advocate violence against another human being to stop abortions. So why should we go against his advice. Last I thought, he was more spiritually guided than us.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1762349' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:41 PM']I did respond to your woodchipper scenario. If you will look upthread, you will see.[/quote]
Yes, you responded. No, you didn't get the point. So really, you didn't "respond"; you skirted the issue.