Cloister, Or No?

[InHisLove726]

I'm sure you all have read my other posts, and know that I am currently discerning with the Carmelite Sisters of the Divine Heart of Jesus in Milwaukee, WI. The problem is, I still feel called to the cloister somehow. I just got finished reading Mother Mary Francis' book called, "A Right to Be Merry." For those who don't know, she was a nun with the Poor Clare Monastery of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Roswell, NM and was one of the founding members of that monastery. She originally hailed from Chicago. Anyway, the whole time I was reading the book, I really loved the way she described the cloister and how it is a mix of challenge and joy. The sisters really learn everything about each other, and I love the quote that says that they understand you better than your mother ever did. I do love silence. I find it soothing and peaceful. I used to hate it, but now I love it because it's the only time I can hear God talking to me (and no, I am not schizophrenic, LOL!). I love Adoration, and the Poor Clares of Roswell are so beautiful! I am a Franciscan and Carmelite at heart. I really think I am called to serve as a nurse in the Carmelites, but is it wrong that I feel called to the cloister too??

I am calling my spiritual director tomorrow. I haven't had a chance to talk to him yet, but I really need to because I get confused sometimes. I feel really happy about serving in the world, but I long for that intense silence too. The order I am discerning with is semi-active and semi-contemplative, and they call the Sisters' quarters the "cloister" though they are not cloistered. Is is the contemplative side is just calling out to me?? I will visit at least one cloister to make sure I am not called there, but a part of me wants to be.

Has anyone ever had this happen?? What did you end up doing about it?? Thanks guys (and gals)!

[Lilllabettt]

It's normal and natural that if you read something about a particular vocation, the beauty and virtue of that vocation will shine especially brightly at that moment, and you will feel attracted to it. If you see a wonderful example of Catholic marriage and family life, you might feel called to that. If you read about the Missionaries of Charity, you may feel attracted to their radical detachment and service to the poorest ... if you see "Into Great Silence" you may experience the desire to be a radically contemplative Trappist.

Those emotions even occur to professed religious who are not M.C.'s or Trappists. They (usually) recognize that their attractions to those other communities were superficial and passing ones ... what they were [i]really[/i] attracted to was the holiness and zeal, the "things of God," which were set before them so clearly in whatever they'd seen or read. They knew that, in reality,God was calling them to that kind of holiness and devotion where they already were.

The only way to figure out (half way, at least) if you're called to be cloistered or not is to visit and pray. But I think it's important to keep in mind, that even if you find a certain path is for you, and you've prayed, and discerned, and decided, it's okay to to feel some attraction to another way of life. They are attractive to you because they are ways of serving God, and that is what we are all made for! It does not necessarily mean "that" path is really your vocation.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='InHisLove726' post='1754834' date='Jan 19 2009, 12:40 AM']I'm sure you all have read my other posts, and know that I am currently discerning with the Carmelite Sisters of the Divine Heart of Jesus in Milwaukee, WI. The problem is, I still feel called to the cloister somehow. I just got finished reading Mother Mary Francis' book called, "A Right to Be Merry." For those who don't know, she was a nun with the Poor Clare Monastery of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Roswell, NM and was one of the founding members of that monastery. She originally hailed from Chicago. Anyway, the whole time I was reading the book, I really loved the way she described the cloister and how it is a mix of challenge and joy. The sisters really learn everything about each other, and I love the quote that says that they understand you better than your mother ever did. I do love silence. I find it soothing and peaceful. I used to hate it, but now I love it because it's the only time I can hear God talking to me (and no, I am not schizophrenic, LOL!). I love Adoration, and the Poor Clares of Roswell are so beautiful! I am a Franciscan and Carmelite at heart. I really think I am called to serve as a nurse in the Carmelites, but is it wrong that I feel called to the cloister too??

I am calling my spiritual director tomorrow. I haven't had a chance to talk to him yet, but I really need to because I get confused sometimes. I feel really happy about serving in the world, but I long for that intense silence too. The order I am discerning with is semi-active and semi-contemplative, and they call the Sisters' quarters the "cloister" though they are not cloistered. Is is the contemplative side is just calling out to me?? I will visit at least one cloister to make sure I am not called there, but a part of me wants to be.

Has anyone ever had this happen?? What did you end up doing about it?? Thanks guys (and gals)![/quote]

St. Teresa de los Andes struggled with these same feelings:

"Everything I'd experieced before -doubting that God wanted me to be a Carmelite is the cause of my suffering. My whole life I've wanted this, but right now I'm waverig between Carmel and the Congregation of the Sacred Heart. So, I come to you, my dear and respected Mother, to beg your counsel. You know me well, since I've let you read my soul...The Sacred Heart Congregation attracts me because there one lives a life of constant sacrifice. At every hour of the day and even at night they are to immolate themselves for souls. It's true that theirs is a mixed life, but they must have a deep interior life so that their work can bear fruit in this way; for they are to bring souls to God, they themsleves remaining with God; otherwise, they will have nothing to offer. All of this is attractive to me. Still, the quiet and beloved convent, far from the noise of the world, whose gates open only to heaven, that life of prayer and union with God is strongly pressing me to go there. But suddenly, I think I should give up those attractions in order to win souls. It seems Our Lord is sending me all these doubts to test me, because when I'm at prayer, He makes me understand that I should become a Carmelite. But when prayer is over, the most terrible doubts spring up in this soul of mine, which felt it had obtained light from heaven and I slip back into deep darkness. I've prayed to know God's will, and I've also given a great deal of thought to where I could become holy more quickly, because that's what I want above everything else." - St. Teresa de los Andes (writing to the Mother Prioress of Carmel)

"Still, Rev. Father, don't think that everything is joy. I'm in such an atrocious state of doubt that I don't even know how to make a decision as to whether I should become a Carmelite or a Sacred Heart Sister. That's why I'm searchig for light...On the one hand, I feel attracted to Carmel in order to live a complete life of prayer and union with God, absolutely separated from the world. I also feel attracted to its austerity and its purpose, which is to pray for the sinners and priests. What enchants me about the Carmelite life is that a Carmelite sacrifices herself in silence, without seeing the fruits of her prayers and sacrifices. In addition, the family life and the simplicity of Carmelite customs, as well as the joy that must ever reign in the Carmelite's heart, please me very much and are in accord with my temperament. On the other hand, I would like to become a Religious of the Sacred heart, because their's is a perpetual life of sacrifice. It is also a life of prayer, since they dedicate five hours to this, counting the Office and examinations of conscience. Furthermore, when they find difficulties in educating little girls, to whom can they have recourse but to God, that He may smooth out the path leading those souls to God? When they must deal with people of the world they must force themselves to maintain a true religious spirit; and for this, prayer and union with God are necessary. They live and constantly see the spirit of the world in the girls - that spirit of comfort - and still they must sacrifice themselves constantly by living in the greatest poverty: their whole day and often the night is conscerated to souls, without their even having a cell of their own, since four of them sleep in every dormitory; and these are not always large and well ventilated. They have no permanent convent where they live. They can be sent to any part of the world, finding themselves more lonely than a Carmelite Sister, in a strange land, without seeing even one familiar face and often not even knowing the language spoken. A Carmelite once and for all renounces the comfort of life and everything in the world. But a Religious of the Sacred Heart is constantly making the sacrifice of everything on earth. Doesn't she find that her heart must be even more detached from earthly love? And the more detached it is, the more the Lord will unite Himself to her. A Carmelite needs to be united to God and completely filled with Him, but she keeps this spirit; while a Sacred Heart Sister must be filled with God and give Him to souls. She, therefore, needs greater union; for, if she doesn't possess it, she'll remain without God and will have nothing to give to souls. But what terrifies me, Rev. Father, is that I don't remain united to God when dealing a great deal with creatures. For I've learned from experience that by dealing a little more with them, I grow colder in love for God. I also think that Our Lord has very clearly made known to me that I should become a Carmelite, even though I don't know any Carmelites...." - St. Teresa de los Andes (writing to her priest)

St. Teresa de los Andes attended boarding school from a very young age and so grew up around the active, Sacred Heart Sisters. Then too, she was discerning with the Carmelites who were cloistered. This is kind of like your situation "active or cloistered." I not only posted these to show an example of how she dealt with the doubts and confusion during discernment, but also to show her very detailed examinations of both lives. She describes both so beautifully, and it becomes very clear in her writing that the life of an active sister is just as demanding and beautiful as that of a cloistered nun, if not more so. In the end I believe after prayer, talking with her spiritual director, seeking the advice of the sisters (from both, I believe), and examination of her own temperment (gifts and weaknesses) she was able to come to the conclusion that she was called to the cloister. It takes a very special soul to be an active sister, and she just did not see herself possessing those gifts needed. I think pray about it.

As Padre Pio wrote, "Pray. Hope. Don't worry."

"My daughter, be at peace; I am taking all these matters upon Myself. I will arrange all things..." (Jesus to St. Faustina, notebook I #215)

"My daughter, let nothing frighten or disconcert you. Remain deeply at peace. Everything is in My hands. I will give you to understand everything... be like a child..." (Jesus to St. Faustina, notebook I, #219)

EDITED: for typos... lots

Edited January 19, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[tinytherese]

Yea, week long visits or so can help. I know of this one young man who felt attracted to the life of a contemplative carmelite monk but when he sought entry, they told him that they were not seeking new applicants at the time (because of the political turmoil going on then.) He kept discerning and decided to enter the seminary for ordination. Over time he still felt that attraction to the carmelite charism though and almost left the seminary because of it. One of his superiors noticed that in his writing about St. John of the Cross that his reflections were more scholarly instead of contemplative-like. They also told him that the church needed a priest like him to minister to the people. The young man took his superior's advice and received ordination. Guess who that young man was? Pope John Paul II!!!!!!!!!!!

[InHisLove726]

Thank you, all of you! I really appreciate the in depth responses and it helps a great deal to know that I am discerning normally. TotusTuusMaria, I love the quotes you gave from Teresa of the Andes. She was a beautiful Carmelite religious, and to see myself in her, that really gives me hope.

Now, thinking about both of my options, I love the Carmelites of the Divine Heart of Jesus, and all the ministries that me and the Vocation Director, Sr. M. Immaculata, were discussing, are places I could see myself working. I never felt more joyful when I was working as a Nursing Assistant during rounds on my clinical internship. I knew that was the place for me while I was there. I felt God calling me to further my studies and become a Registered Nurse, and when I talked to Sister, she said that I am able to complete my nursing training in the convent if I join. She didn't express any doubt she had from the letter I sent, and she said it was very informative. The only thing I haven't mentioned to her (and I don't plan on doing it until it's been 12 months) is that I have a history of depression, and I've been on anti-depressants up until last month. I took myself off them (weaning down), and I've been off them for a little over a month. When I talked to the Sisters in St. Louis of the same order, they said I must be off them for a year before asking for an application. I want her to see my determination.

Also, whenever I am in prayer, I feel such peace about my calling to religious life. I don't believe I have the grace of being cloistered because I am called to actively minister to others. I appreciate that cloistered contemplatives, such as Mother Mary Francis and St. Teresa of the Andes, understand that active sisters are just as dedicated to God as the next Sister. I am so grateful that the Carmelite DCJ sisters are contemplative also, and I felt the closeness with God when I was with the St. Louis Sisters. I felt as though I was right where I was supposed to be when I was praying with them in their choir, but I needed to discover which Province needed nurses the most. That's when the Lord sent me the sign within that beautiful Christmas card I received last month.

I know that I am called to the Carmelites. Nothing gives me greater peace than when I think about them. I know in my heart that I am called to be a nurse because I am excited about where I am going and I can't wait to begin.

I love Pope John Paul II! He actually became a Third Order Secular Carmelite. I am very happy to have seen who he was first hand, and I am sure that I recognized a saint.

God bless all of you! I am so thankful for the gift of being able to talk to others about my discernment.

[johnnydigit]

so far for me it's the process of elimination. go and check them out. journal. make comparative lists. pray, pray, pray. eventually just choose one and go. if God wants you somewhere else, he'll send you there, but the time at the first will be invaluable.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1754876' date='Jan 19 2009, 06:16 AM']It's normal and natural that if you read something about a particular vocation, the beauty and virtue of that vocation will shine especially brightly at that moment, and you will feel attracted to it. If you see a wonderful example of Catholic marriage and family life, you might feel called to that. If you read about the Missionaries of Charity, you may feel attracted to their radical detachment and service to the poorest ... if you see "Into Great Silence" you may experience the desire to be a radically contemplative Trappist.

Those emotions even occur to professed religious who are not M.C.'s or Trappists. They (usually) recognize that their attractions to those other communities were superficial and passing ones ... what they were [i]really[/i] attracted to was the holiness and zeal, the "things of God," which were set before them so clearly in whatever they'd seen or read. They knew that, in reality,God was calling them to that kind of holiness and devotion where they already were.

The only way to figure out (half way, at least) if you're called to be cloistered or not is to visit and pray. But I think it's important to keep in mind, that even if you find a certain path is for you, and you've prayed, and discerned, and decided, it's okay to to feel some attraction to another way of life. They are attractive to you because they are ways of serving God, and that is what we are all made for! It does not necessarily mean "that" path is really your vocation.[/quote]

This, basically (although Into Great Silence was about Carthusians ).

I think the only thing I'd add - which sounds a bit contradictionary - is to detach yourself from your discernment. There will always be attractions and if we allow ourselves to be turned by them, we won't get anywhere. The (a?) way to deal with this is to entrust it to your spiritual director: another soul who's got more experience in this is better able to tell you (yes, tell!) which ones are genuine possibilities and which aren't.

Of course, this is contingent upon the relationship between you and your SD, which should be open and trusting (at least on your part; he's not required to tell you how his meditation schedule went last month). There was a discussion here a while back on obedience to one's SD; I'd encourage you to look it up, but in general I'd advocate practising obedience. My SD laughs at me because [i]eventually[/i] I get round to actually doing what he tells me to...about a week after his "suggestion" was first given to me

[the lords sheep]

Follow PP's advice. Every religious order has something attractive to it. Listen to your SD and sit with one order at a time.

Also, keep in mind, that the DCJs have quite a contemplative life. They have many hours of prayer every day, including the hours and two periods of meditation for mental prayer, adoration, rosary and of course Mass. Their active apostalate is secondary to their apostalate of prayer, and are almost always on the grounds where the Sisters live so that they can better keep cloister from the world.

In Christ,
Lauren

[Luigi]

I think it's natural for most people who make any kind of a commitment to question it at least occasionally, second guess their decision, wonder if they should have done something else. I know married people who are committed to their spouses but still wonder if they should have fill-in-the-blank - stayed in the seminary, joined an order, married someone else, stayed single. Thomas Merton felt tugged toward the Carthusians all during his life as a Trappist. If you take a job, or a promotion, or choose one college over another, there will always be some questions-doubts-regrets remaining. Sometimes they pop up when you're just tired, or frustrated with your current situation, or you feel you're not up to the challenges you're facing. But I think sometimes, too, people feel like "I could do so much more good if I were fill-in-the-blank - a lawyer, a Carthusian, still single, whatever."

It comes down to commitment - you choose your path after careful consideration of all the alternatives (orders, possible spouses, job opportunities) and then you stick to it. In fact, that may be the very definition of commitment - you stick with it IN SPITE OF the questions, doubts, regrets, wondering. If it were easy, everyone would be able to do it, but it's not easy. That's why we celebrate wedding anniversaries, entrance anniversaries, and so forth - it's a way of honoring the commitment through all of the challenges.

It sounds to me like you're trying to figure out what you need personally in religious life (based on your own self-assessment and your SD's assessment) and where your nursing skills will let you do the most good for an order and the people of God they serve. That's a good dilemma to have. You're still choosing your path, still considering all the alternatives. You, your SD, the vocation directors, and the Holy Spirit will all work it out eventually. Hang in there.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]The only thing I haven't mentioned to her (and I don't plan on doing it until it's been 12 months) is that I have a history of depression, and I've been on anti-depressants up until last month. I took myself off them (weaning down), and I've been off them for a little over a month. When I talked to the Sisters in St. Louis of the same order, they said I must be off them for a year before asking for an application.[/quote]

I know you have good reasons for deciding to keep this info private from them for awhile .. from my perspective, full disclosure and transparency are what's best ... you will eventually have to tell them about it, and maybe they'd feel like you were "keeping" something from them ... Also, I think the DCJ's in St. Louis/Wisconsin do talk to each other about vocations. You might feel it's best to tell your province about your situation yourself, earlier, in case they might hear about it from their Sisters ...

I know you already know this, but be sure that you're 100% transparent with them if they do ask about your health ... because a lot of communities will ask about that kind of stuff very early on in the relationship.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1755186' date='Jan 19 2009, 10:59 AM']I know you have good reasons for deciding to keep this info private from them for awhile .. from my perspective, full disclosure and transparency are what's best ... you will eventually have to tell them about it, and maybe they'd feel like you were "keeping" something from them ... Also, I think the DCJ's in St. Louis/Wisconsin do talk to each other about vocations. You might feel it's best to tell your province about your situation yourself, earlier, in case they might hear about it from their Sisters ...

I know you already know this, but be sure that you're 100% transparent with them if they do ask about your health ... because a lot of communities will ask about that kind of stuff very early on in the relationship.[/quote]

That's true. I had to disclose this information on the Preliminary Application that I gave to the retreat Sister at St. Louis. That's how I found out that I had to be off the medication for 12 months first. I am not going to lie to her, but I don't want to be blunt either. I've had repercussions in the past for doing that, and was turned down by another order strictly for having a history of depression. Now that I am off the medicine, I want to see how I react. Of course, it will take some time. My sleep schedule is a little off, but I've heard that's normal. I want to be safe about this, and I am trusting in the Eucharist to get me through.

If she asks me, I will tell her. Most likely, in person. I'm sure that I'll do it sooner rather than later.

God bless you!

Edited January 19, 2009 by InHisLove726

[MithLuin]

LoL, yes, what 'might-have-been' is a funny thing. Even for something as simple as buying a car - I looked at one type, and bought another. Now, every time I see the type I did not buy, I am reminded of that. Not in a, 'man, I wish I bought one!' way, but just in a 'oh, that's that other car I looked at.' You have to have peace about your decision, so it's okay to have doubts and second-guessing now, but hopefully that will all smooth out eventually.

I think we can all agree that it is a good thing Pope John Paul II didn't seek out a contemplative life, even though he felt attracted to it.

Disclosing information as it comes up, in person, sounds prudent. You do not want people to form preconceived notions of you. At the same time, remaining honest and transparent is important for building a relationship of trust.

[Saint Therese]

I wish I had some helpful advice but I've never been even remotely attracted to the "active" apostolate. Sorry!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1754932' date='Jan 18 2009, 11:59 PM']St. Teresa de los Andes struggled with these same feelings:

"Everything I'd experienced before -doubting that God wanted me to be a Carmelite is the cause of my suffering. My whole life I've wanted this, but right now I'm wavering between Carmel and the Congregation of the Sacred Heart. So, I come to you, my dear and respected Mother, to beg your counsel. You know me well, since I've let you read my soul...The Sacred Heart Congregation attracts me because there one lives a life of constant sacrifice. At every hour of the day and even at night they are to immolate themselves for souls. It's true that theirs is a mixed life, but they must have a deep interior life so that their work can bear fruit in this way; for they are to bring souls to God, they themselves remaining with God ...[/quote]
Wow, those are beautiful statements from St. Teresa of the Andes. Thank you, Marie! You know, it's interesting that I first felt called to the cloistered life from reading [url="http://www.freewebs.com/eucharist/josepha.htm"]Sr. Josefa Menendez[/url]'s [url="http://www.amazon.com/Way-Divine-Love-Biography-Messenger/dp/0895552760"][i]Way of Divine Love[/i][/url], and she was not actually a cloistered nun, but a Co-Adjutrix Sister (another way of saying Lay Sister) with the Society of the Sacred Heart. It always seems that God uses the least expected for the greatest things.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1755849' date='Jan 19 2009, 06:25 PM']Wow, those are beautiful statements from St. Teresa of the Andes. Thank you, Marie! You know, it's interesting that I first felt called to the cloistered life from reading [url="http://www.freewebs.com/eucharist/josepha.htm"]Sr. Josefa Menendez[/url]'s [url="http://www.amazon.com/Way-Divine-Love-Biography-Messenger/dp/0895552760"][i]Way of Divine Love[/i][/url], and she was not actually a cloistered nun, but a Co-Adjutrix Sister (another way of saying Lay Sister) with the Society of the Sacred Heart. It always seems that God uses the least expected for the greatest things. [/quote]


I really want to read that book! My friend is reading it now, and I've read some parts online. It's so deeply moving.