LouisvilleFan Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1756591' date='Jan 20 2009, 03:12 PM']Didn't know we had to meet your standards.[/quote] They aren't my standards. Christ and the Church command us to faithfulness in everything, not just those we like. This quote by Blessed Frassati sums it up beautifully: "Jesus comes to me every morning in Holy Communion: I repay him in my very small way by visiting the poor." Edited January 21, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1753911' date='Jan 17 2009, 06:09 PM']Though I think both are extremely important, if I had to choose a parish based upon one or the other, I would without a doubt choose my parish based on liturgical orthodoxy.[/quote] That's a good way to look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 "Even the suggestion that we should ever need to pick one and exclude the other is like asking a mother to love some of her children at the exclusion of the rest. Even more, it's insulting to the Creator of our Faith, as if we need to proofread His work." I like this answer, cause it's pointing out that we're creating a problem where none exists. God didn't design existance that way, so why would we have to pick? there's always a way to do both, somehow. creating a situation where it's not gonna work, is pure theory, and not really something that can be answered cause there's no basis in reality. "can i put a triangle peg in a round hole", to an extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Liturgical Orthodoxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1758003' date='Jan 21 2009, 08:36 PM']That's a good way to look at it.[/quote] I'm not seeing it... how is this a good way to look at it? I understand some people believe the liturgy and direct worship of Christ is the highest priority and everything else comes forth from that, but is this how the Church really sees it? Is there even a "right" answer to this question? [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1758406' date='Jan 22 2009, 03:28 AM']Liturgical Orthodoxy.[/quote] For the same reason everyone else chooses this one? There's an old book by Cardinal Avery Dulles titled "Models of Church." I saw a copy of it the other day. The cover screamed disco and bell bottoms, but I'm told that his theories continue to be widely followed today. I figure it must be a worthwhile read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1758539' date='Jan 22 2009, 10:38 AM']For the same reason everyone else chooses this one?[/quote] Orthodoxy means right glory or right praise, and is focused primarily upon the liturgical worship of God the Father, through the Son, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the liturgy that provides the graces necessary in order to live a truly Christian life. Moreover, love of neighbor depends upon love of God, and not vice versa. [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1758539' date='Jan 22 2009, 10:38 AM']There's an old book by Cardinal Avery Dulles titled "Models of Church." I saw a copy of it the other day. The cover screamed disco and bell bottoms, but I'm told that his theories continue to be widely followed today. I figure it must be a worthwhile read.[/quote] I read Dulles' book and was utterly unimpressed by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1759048' date='Jan 23 2009, 07:57 AM']Orthodoxy means right glory or right praise, and is focused primarily upon the liturgical worship of God the Father, through the Son, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the liturgy that provides the graces necessary in order to live a truly Christian life. Moreover, love of neighbor depends upon love of God, and not vice versa.[/quote] This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1759048' date='Jan 23 2009, 01:57 AM']Orthodoxy means right glory or right praise, and is focused primarily upon the liturgical worship of God the Father, through the Son, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is the liturgy that provides the graces necessary in order to live a truly Christian life. Moreover, love of neighbor depends upon love of God, and not vice versa.[/quote] Then what do you make of those Christians who don't practice their faith within a liturgical tradition yet show evident signs of God's grace working through them, by their openess and abandonment to God's will and conversions that occur through their actions? On the other hand, many Catholic and Orthodox Christians love liturgy and orthodoxy, but that seems to be about it. I don't see them daring to move into a poor neighborhood to serve a community that's usually overlooked (even by the parishioners of an "orthodox" parish down the street). I don't see them preaching on college campuses. Most of them seem content to mind their own business and could care less about inviting the people God puts in their lives to follow Christ. Obviously, I'm a faithful Catholic, so I'm not questioning the liturgy itself and I think your answer is on the right track... but there must be another ingredient besides the liturgy itself. Just thinking out loud about it... Edited January 23, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1759191' date='Jan 23 2009, 07:03 AM']Then what do you make of those Christians who don't practice their faith within a liturgical tradition yet show evident signs of God's grace working through them, by their openess and abandonment to God's will and conversions that occur through their actions?[/quote] They are not living a fully Christian life. The Church is realized and made manifest through the liturgy, which involves giving right glory to the tri-hypostatic God. The Liturgy is the sacramental representation of Christ's paschal mystery, and the sacramental participation in the celestial worship of the Father, and to lack this is to lack a fully developed Christian life. The Church has always held that contemplation of the divine majesty is the highest good. Edited January 23, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1759191' date='Jan 23 2009, 07:03 AM']On the other hand, many Catholic and Orthodox Christians love liturgy and orthodoxy, but that seems to be about it.[/quote] Holy Orthodoxy does not "buy into" the Western concept of working your way to God through social action. Social action, which is a good, is not the highest good, and if it is not founded upon the liturgical worship of God it can in fact be a distraction that leads one away from salvation. Salvation is focused first and foremost upon the love of God, who first loved us, and upon the love of neighbor, which finds its source in the love of God as a subordinate good. Edited January 23, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) The Church is eucharistic, for it is in the liturgical synaxis that she comes into being. All graces flow out from the tri-hypostatic God through the liturgy. Non-liturgical "Christians" receive grace through the one Church, which is made manifest in the liturgical worship of God. In other words, when I was a Methodist, I received grace from God through the worship offered in the Apostolic Churches, even though at the time I was ignorant of this fact. To be blunt, Methodism -- as a theological system -- is not itself salvific; instead, salvation comes from Christ through His one Church, which celebrates His paschal mystery in the divine liturgy. Edited January 23, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1759196' date='Jan 23 2009, 10:13 AM']Holy Orthodoxy does not "buy into" the Western concept of working your way to God through social action. Social action, which is a good, is not the highest good, and if it is not founded upon the liturgical worship of God it can in fact be a distraction that leads one away from salvation. Salvation is focused first and foremost upon the love of God, who first loved us, and upon the love of neighbor, which finds its source in the love of God as a subordinate good.[/quote] No Christian should buy into a works-based social action gospel. Still, there is clearly an unhealthy disconnect between orthodoxy and social action. In practice, it doesn't appear that orthodoxy challenges anyone to a more radical love of neighbor, and it appears many Christians love their neighbors without orthodox worship. Now, I use the word "appears" because I know there's more to Christianity than what we can observe, but it bothers me that everyone seems to accept this division of labor. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong to expect a connection between orthodox liturgy and radical social action. Why aren't the same priests who take care to incense the Gospels and the altar taking care to challenge me to a deeper relationship with God and service to those in need? In a sense, I do know why... and I happen to think it's a big problem in the Church today, and one to which I confess to not being a part of the solution. Edited January 23, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 It is the worship of God that brings salvation, for worship of the divine majesty is the source of grace which empowers a man to live according to his nature, while also giving him the divine energy that allows him to exceed his nature and become divine and uncreated by grace. The holy hesychasts did not do what we call "social action," focusing all of their attention instead upon the contemplation of the uncreated light of God, and of course in the process these holy men and women experienced the gift of theosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted January 23, 2009 Author Share Posted January 23, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1759206' date='Jan 23 2009, 10:48 AM']No Christian should buy into a works-based social action gospel. Still, there is clearly an unhealthy disconnect between orthodoxy and social action. In practice, it doesn't appear that orthodoxy challenges anyone to a more radical love of neighbor, and it appears many Christians love their neighbors without orthodox worship. Now, I use the word "appears" because I know there's more to Christianity than what we can observe, but it bothers me that everyone seems to accept this division of labor. Maybe I'm the one who's wrong to expect a connection between orthodox liturgy and radical social action. Why aren't the same priests who take care to incense the Gospels and the altar taking care to challenge me to a deeper relationship with God and service to those in need? In a sense, I do know why... and I happen to think it's a big problem in the Church today, and one to which I confess to not being a part of the solution.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 If you read history you will find that the Christians who did most for the present world were precisely those who thought most of the next. It is since Christians have largely ceased to think of the other world that they have become so ineffective in this. C. S. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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