Internet Pirating, Intellectual Property, And Restitution

[rkwright]

Well I used to say pretty much 100% its stealing. In fact I confessed it once, then proceeded to delete all my downloaded songs. But Zigg has brought up a good argument...

Say if I buy a loaf of bread and decide to cut it in half and give half to someone else. Stealing? Of course not.

What if I buy a board game and play it with my family? Stealing - no.

What if I buy a DVD and my whole family and friends sit around and watch it? Or if I loan it? Not stealing.

What if I back up a CD - still not stealing.

And if it truly is my property, why can't I do as I please with it?

Is photocopying an article in a magazine stealing also?

What if I bought a copy of the magazine and then went to the publisher and stole another copy and gave it to a friend? That of course is stealing, but the sin is when I take the item - when I 'copy' the item. But if I buy the item, then copy it myself, have I really stolen something?

Open for more thoughts on this...

[rkwright]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1749584' date='Jan 12 2009, 03:08 PM']If I buy software and "share it" (copying), i steal from the software company. When you purchase software you purchase a license. That license is your private property not the actual program itself.[/quote]

What about books and other written IP?

When you buy the program you're not buying the code, the written work of the program?
BTW in property law, programs are considered written works because they're "written code".

Edited January 12, 2009 by rkwright

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749660' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:12 PM']What of Counterfeiting? Say I have an electronic 100 dollar bill, it's mine it belongs to me, I decide to [i]share it[/i], that is really copying it to, 100 people who copy it to 100 people, and so long and so forth. Would that be wrong? Would that be sin?[/quote]

Now this seems a little different to me. You don't own the $100 bill. Its a federal reserve note, its property of the government, so you cannot copy it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749677' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:27 PM']Now this seems a little different to me. You don't own the $100 bill. Its a federal reserve note, its property of the government, so you cannot copy it.[/quote]

I would own it just as much as one could own a physical $100 bill. If I work for the money the money is mine and if the money is stolen from me I can report to the police that it was stolen. If they find it, it is very likely they would return the $100 dollars back to me, not the Federal Government.

Edited January 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[philothea]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1749646' date='Jan 12 2009, 04:42 PM']For those users arguing that it is grave matter: ([b]1[/b]) are there any conditions that mitigate the gravity of the sin; ([b]2[/b]) how should the perpetrators and accessories to such pirating/stealing be viewed; ([b]3[/b]) in what amount should reparation be made and to whom?


[i]I have personally thought a lot about this so I am eager for other’s opinions, moreover because I personally find the matter very perplexing. I may consider sharing...[/i][/quote]
I'm not arguing that it's grave (I rarely think in those terms) but I do say that it's wrong, and best avoided.

As far as reparation, if you enjoyed the content, go buy a legit copy. If you wouldn't have bought it anyway, just delete what you have. If you really want to be very thoughtful, write a nice review or thank the artist.

Conditions that might excuse downloading copyrighted content without compensating the copyright owner? Maybe there's no legitimate way [i]to[/i] pay for it. (Foreign rights, out or print, etc.) I see no problem with that. Just once you get a chance, do buy it legitimately.

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749684' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:33 PM']I would own it just as much as one could own a physical $100 bill. If I work for the money the money is mine and if the money is stolen from me I can report to the police that it was stolen. If they find it, it is very likely they would return the $100 dollars back to me, not the Federal Government.[/quote]

You own the purchasing power of the $100, but not the bill itself.

If the police were to return you 5 $20s instead of the $100, your stolen property is restored, yet the physical $100 is gone.

The government owns the paper, so you can't copy the paper.

I guess, theoretically, you could try to copy the purchasing power - not sure how?

[KnightofChrist]

I would agree that in some degree that the digital 100 dollar bill would belong to the Federal Government. But that money would also belong to me. The point of the argument is that I could share, give it to a friend but I could not copy it and give the copy to a friend.

intellectual property I believe works on a very similar level, I buy a CD the CD belongs to me but the intellectual property on the CD belongs to the artist. I can share that CD with a friend but should I as a Christian copy that CD to a 100 or a 1,000 of my 'friends'?

Edited January 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749689' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:42 PM']You own the purchasing power of the $100, but not the bill itself.

If the police were to return you 5 $20s instead of the $100, your stolen property is restored, yet the physical $100 is gone.

The government owns the paper, so you can't copy the paper.

I guess, theoretically, you could try to copy the purchasing power - not sure how?[/quote]

I was speaking of electronic money digital money, paper money was a side note.

Edited January 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749690' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:42 PM']I would agree that in some degree that the 100 dollar bill would belong to the Federal Government. But that money would also belong to me. The point of the argument is that I could share, give it to a friend but I could not copy it and give the copy to a friend.

intellectual property I believe works on a very similar level, I buy a CD the CD belongs to me but the intellectual property on the CD belongs to the artist. I can share that CD with a friend but should I as a Christian copy that CD to a 100 or a 1,000 of my 'friends'?[/quote]

Yea this seems to make more sense. You're not buying the intellectual property itself. Just as others have said, your buying a license to the property.

The $100 is interesting stuff, and if your talking electronic banking, I guess you would say the value is yours but the bank account is the banks. You can't copy the account.

Part of this is interesting to think about, but there is also the smell test - and this definitely smells like stealing.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749695' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:53 PM']Yea this seems to make more sense. You're not buying the intellectual property itself. Just as others have said, your buying a license to the property.

The $100 is interesting stuff, and if your talking electronic banking, I guess you would say the value is yours but the bank account is the banks. You can't copy the account.

Part of this is interesting to think about, but there is also the smell test - and this definitely smells like stealing.[/quote]

I think it is stealing. It is surely not 'sharing' it is copying. And to the point of bank accounts my next point would be, can someone if it where possible take 50 dollars in his/her account copy it digitally and share it on a P2P network with millions of other people to upload to their banking accounts? I think the answer is clear, that would be stealing, and the people who 'share' thieves.

Edited January 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[philothea]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749670' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:24 PM']Well I used to say pretty much 100% its stealing. In fact I confessed it once, then proceeded to delete all my downloaded songs. But Zigg has brought up a good argument...

Say if I buy a loaf of bread and decide to cut it in half and give half to someone else. Stealing? Of course not.

What if I buy a board game and play it with my family? Stealing - no.

What if I buy a DVD and my whole family and friends sit around and watch it? Or if I loan it? Not stealing.

What if I back up a CD - still not stealing.

And if it truly is my property, why can't I do as I please with it?

Is photocopying an article in a magazine stealing also?

What if I bought a copy of the magazine and then went to the publisher and stole another copy and gave it to a friend? That of course is stealing, but the sin is when I take the item - when I 'copy' the item. But if I buy the item, then copy it myself, have I really stolen something?

Open for more thoughts on this...[/quote]
Because that's not how copyright works. The laws are plenty explicit. The owner of a created work owns all rights to that work and its distribution, until and unless they chose to sell it. You [i]can[/i] purchase the rights to distribute someone else's work, and it's generally a lot more expensive than buying one copy for personal use.

Now, the modern-day system of copyright may be flawed, stupid, self-defeating, and impossible to enforce, but those are still the terms offered, and there's nothing immoral about [i]not[/i] sharing that content, or [i]not[/i] getting illegitimate copies, so there's no reason to break that law.

The content creators and artists are, for the most part, fully capable of sharing it with you for free if that's their desire. If they were giving the stuff away, you'd know.

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1749699' date='Jan 12 2009, 05:57 PM']I think it is stealing. It is surely not 'sharing' it is copying. And to the point of bank accounts my next point would be, can someone if it where possible take 50 dollars in his/her account copy it digitally and share it on a P2P network with millions of other people to upload to their banking accounts? I think the answer is clear, that would be stealing, and the people who 'share' thieves.[/quote]

Not without paying income tax

That gets tricky again though. I mean thats basically creating something out of nothing.

If you could take the piece of bread and put it in a machine that duplicated it - if you give it away is this stealing? You own the bread 100%. Or what if I type something up, print it, then copy it? No theft here because it was mine all along.

Same with the money in the bank account, maybe? You own the $100. If it were possible to duplicate it, is this wrong? This is where I brought in the physical $100 bill. The crime there is not in creating $100 of purchasing power, its duplicating the bill thats not yours.

This is getting into the hypothetical realm of duplicating items.

I think it is clear with CDs and other IP you do not actually own the IP and so copying it would be stealing it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']Not without paying income tax

That gets tricky again though. I mean thats basically creating something out of nothing.[/quote]

No, not really nothing, digital money is real. It exist digitally it has the same worth as paper money. If I'm paid by Wally Word and they pay me by direct deposit into my Checking Account those funds do exist. I have serious doubts that any logical argument can be made that would make it ok for me to digitally copy those funds, keep the original by the way, and give the copies to millions of other people and that not be stealing.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']If you could take the piece of bread and put it in a machine that duplicated it - if you give it away is this stealing? You own the bread 100%. Or what if I type something up, print it, then copy it? No theft here because it was mine all along.[/quote]

If a song was what you created, or if you created the bill or note like a rkwright 5 note. That would be just fine to share with as many as you wanted. Because yes it was yours all along.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']Same with the money in the bank account, maybe? You own the $100. If it were possible to duplicate it, is this wrong? This is where I brought in the physical $100 bill. The crime there is not in creating $100 of purchasing power, its duplicating the bill thats not yours.[/quote]

I am sure the Federal Government would consider it a crime to copy digital money. How exactly does one separate the purchasing power from a digital bill, when the copy is an exact copy of the original?

[quote name='rkwright' post='1749709' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:07 PM']This is getting into the hypothetical realm of duplicating items.

I think it is clear with CDs and other IP you do not actually own the IP and so copying it would be stealing it.[/quote]

I agree.

[CatherineM]

I just found out this morning from the Archbishop's secretary that my book is being lent around the pastoral center. She said the next person in line to read her copy was her boss. I am not going to call the Archbishop and demand that he buy a copy if he is going to read it. I think it is human nature to want to share things with friends. I think it is different if someone was copying it to sell, or was copying it for multitudes of others. I suppose I might also feel differently if I was receiving the profits.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1749745' date='Jan 12 2009, 07:51 PM']I just found out this morning from the Archbishop's secretary that my book is being lent around the pastoral center. She said the next person in line to read her copy was her boss. I am not going to call the Archbishop and demand that he buy a copy if he is going to read it. I think it is human nature to want to share things with friends. I think it is different if someone was copying it to sell, or was copying it for multitudes of others. I suppose I might also feel differently if I was receiving the profits.[/quote]

I think what your talking about with the Archbishop is real sharing, and ok. But that is not the same as P2P 'sharing' which is nothing more than mass duplication of IP which copier/users do not own.