Capuchin Poor Clares

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='InHisLove726' post='1749172' date='Jan 11 2009, 10:44 PM'][mod]Edited at the poster's request. --Era Might[/mod]

You have my prayers. God bless.[/quote]

Check out his interests on his profile. I think that explains everything.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1749597' date='Jan 12 2009, 03:41 PM']Check out his interests on his profile. I think that explains everything.[/quote]

I did, and I am praying for this lost soul. I pray he comes back to full communion with the Church.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='frateumile' post='1748191' date='Jan 10 2009, 02:07 PM']I don't like these cloistered nuns who do not hide to the profane eyes of the world themselves behind the veil and the thick,strong grating of the seclusion. The order of the Capuchin Poor Clares founded from Maria Lorenza Longo was one of the strictest institutes of seclusion for poverty, penance and prayer. Today these nuns are an insulte to the catholic tradition and the too poverty that there is in the world. At least 1/3 of humanities don't live in the well-being that these nuns have disposition. Our Lord on the cross cannot that to continue to bleed, Saint Francis scandalously is betrayed and the Catholic Church cannot that to go adrift and ruin.[/quote]

Pax et bonum, Frate Umile! I understand that the modern day Capuchin Poor Clare nuns are not your cup of tea. But before you are so harsh on them, I would like to ask you to take a step back and consider history a bit more closely. Maria Lorenza Longo was a widow who entered the Third Order of the Franciscans at the age of 47 (1510). She worked for many years in a hospital and offered hospitality. It was in 1535 that she met the Capuchins, and decided that she wanted to end her years in the cloister. She died in 1539. While it cannot be doubted that she founded the Capuchin Poor Clares nor that they did practice seclusion, it would be difficult to argue that their founder valued this above all else, when she had such an active life herself up until her last years. She did not enter the cloister herself until the age of 72, shortly before her death.

St. Francis loved holy poverty, and it is true he felt betrayed (even in his own lifetime) when his brothers did not follow in the life he tried to lead them in. The Rule of St. Francis is not the detailed code of rules worked out over many years that the Rule of St. Benedict is - it is simple, and inevitibly open to interpretation. Same with the Rule of St. Clare. Living in holy poverty is very important. The grill? Not so much.

You may find the Rule of St. Clare [url="http://www.stanthonyshrine.org/PoorClares/Rule_St_Clare.pdf"]HERE[/url]

Here are some relevant passages:
[quote]Afterwards, once her hair has been cut off round her head and her secular clothes set
aside, she may be permitted three tunics and a mantle. Thereafter, she may not go outside
the monastery except for a useful, reasonable, evident, and approved purpose.
When the year of probation is ended, let her be received into obedience, promising to
observe perpetually our life and form of poverty.
No one is to receive the veil during the period of probation. The sisters may also have
little mantles for convenience and propriety in serving and working. In fact, the
Abbess should with discernment provide them with clothing according to the diversity
of persons, places, seasons and cold climates, as it shall seem expedient to her by
necessity. [i]from Chapter 2:[/i] THOSE WHO WISH TO ACCEPT THIS LIFE
AND HOW THEY ARE TO BE RECEIVED[/quote]

As you can see, even a postulant is permitted to leave the enclosure with good reason. The rule goes on to make stipulations about the way of life, and assumes that some sisters will be working outside the monastary. For instance, these sisters are to wear shoes, and may be given a reprieve from fasting:
[quote]"The sisters shall fast at all times. They may eat twice on Christmas, however, no matter
on what day it happens to fall. The younger sisters, those who are weak, and [u]those
who are serving outside the monastery[/u] may be mercifully dispensed as the Abbess
sees fit. But the sisters are not bound to corporal fasting in time of manifest necessity.[/quote]

Not only that, but others are permitted to enter the enclosure as well (assuming it is for good reason). For instance:
[quote]The Chaplain may celebrate inside [the enclosure] in order to give Communion to the sisters who are in good health or to those who are ill.[/quote]

This is what is said about the Grille:
[indent][quote]The sisters may not speak in the parlor or at the grille without the permission of the
Abbess or her Vicaress. Let those who have permission not dare to speak in the parlor
unless they are in the presence and hearing of two sisters. Let them not presume to go
to the grille, moreover, unless there are at least three sisters present [who have been]
appointed by the Abbess or her Vicaress from the eight discreets who were elected by
all the sisters for the council of the Abbess. Let the Abbess and her Vicaress be themselves
bound to observe this form of speaking. [Let the sisters speak] very rarely at the
grille and, by all means, never at the door.
Let a curtain be hung inside the grille which may not be removed except when the
Word of God is preached or when a sister is speaking with someone. Let the grille
have a wooden door which is well provided with two distinct iron locks, bolts, and
bars, so that it can be locked, especially at night, by two keys, one of which the Abbess
should keep and the other the sacristan. Let it always be locked except when the
Divine Office is being celebrated and for the reasons given above. Under no circumstance
whatever, may a sister speak to anyone at the grille before sunrise or after sunset.
Let there always be a curtain on the inside of the parlor, which may not be
removed.
No one may speak in the parlor during the Lent of Saint Martin and the Greater Lent,
except to a priest for Confession or for some other manifest necessity, which is left to
the prudence of the Abbess or her Vicaress.[/quote][/indent]

Not to be ignored, surely, but a discipline of prudence more than anything. The words of St. Francis and St. Clare are quite specific on poverty, though - [i]that[/i] was the important aspect of their life: [quote]He said: "I, little brother Francis, wish to follow the life and poverty of our
most high Lord Jesus Christ and of His holy Mother and to persevere in this until the
end; and I ask and counsel you, my ladies, to live always in this most holy life and
poverty. And keep most careful watch that you never depart from this by reason of
the teaching or advice of anyone."[/quote]


But as I said, St. Francis said [i]what[/i] to do, not how to do it. I would not presume to know what poverty others live in, not having visited them. But I do know that it is difficult to live at the level of third world poverty, even in the third world - people are sure to donate things to you. The more abject your poverty, the more lavish the donations. The first few places I worked, people donated bags of clothes to me. It wasn't until years later that I realized they saw my wardrobe to be lacking and were taking pity on me.



Certainly, there are reasons not to consider joining a particular order. But to say that they are worthless and leading people astray simply because they do not interpret their constitutions the way you do...isn't that a bit arrogant? Blessings on you, and may you find a better path.

Edited January 12, 2009 by MithLuin