What Are Bad Reasons To Join An Order

[osapientia]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1744879' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:05 AM']If someone entered religious life with those motivations, they wouldn't last very long.[/quote]

Why not? Hundreds of people who entered religoius life for the "wrong" reason are still in it - many, many years later. Do you know how many people just prior to Vat II were "forced" to enter religious life by family members? For sure many have left their communities by this time -but not all. Those people would be in their late 70's or early 80's and many have served well for a very long period of time. My guess is I had some of them as teachers and I had a marvelous Catholic education.

In my opinioni it would be prudent to be a bit less sure of oneself on the subject of who will last and who will not and for what reasons.

Even the great St. Teresa of Avila - a Doctor of the Church herself - admits in her autobiography to what we would today consider rather suspect motives for entering religoius life.....check it out, it's quite something.

God can and does occasinally create such a miracle.

It is certainly adivsable to discern, but not all of us have the grace of such clarity as to know "THIS is it because x, y z" or I know that I know that I know I'm supposed to be a "fill in the blank because a, b c". We all have to work and to evaluate our motivaions on a number of things. I honestly don't believe that there would be much spiitual growth without that kind of examination of the self.

Sometimes there is a very real but perhaps deep reason for believing one is called to religious life but one just may not be able to express it clearly and so it comes out all "wrong" or "superficial" or a "bad reason for entering religious life". Formation directors, spritual directors, even therapists are there to help a person define and express their authentic motivations.

I think this subject/question was posted/proposed with all good intention as were the responses but I'm a bit concerned that it might do some damage (that may be too strong a word but it's late and I can't think of another) to a possible vocation out there.

No one should be afraid to continue discernment or approach a community because of some list of "bad reasons for entering religous life"....who knows, you may be the 21st century's Teresa de Jesus de Avila, Saint and Doctor of the Church.

As others have mentioned there are safeguards built into the process - they aren't nearly as good for marriage as they are for religous life - but still, like the Mother she is, our Church provides us with he guidance we need to make the right choices.

Pax

[DameAgnes]

[quote name='Luigi' post='1744878' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:04 AM']The upshot is that, while it is possible to join for the wrong reasons and still develop into a holy priest or religious, many people who join for the wrong reasons develop into real problems - I guess that's why orders now require psychological testing, and why they want people to have some work/real-world experience - they've been burned in the past by people joining for the worng reasons.[/quote]

I think it is remarkable that some can discover that while they joined for "the wrong reasons" they've discovered they had a vocation. It tells us that they were hearing God...just, perhaps not hearing Him so perfectly, at first! :-)

[VeniteAdoremus]

I think osapientia is right when she says this thread could be dangerous to vocations, even though what's in it is technically true. What I think discerners reading this thread should realise is that [i]discernment is not a solo flight[/i]. It all boils down to "Is it me, or is it God?"

Not much people would join a congregation if they thought the nuns were horrible, the habit is ugly, and the rhythm of prayer was composed by an idiot. So thinking the nuns are great and the habit is beautiful is a [i]good sign[/i].

But thinking the nuns are great, the habit is beautiful, and they're doing fantastic things is not enough to be a vocation. You need that little [i]je ne sais quoi[/i]. That phrase means "I don't know what", and funnily enough that's exactly what it boils down to.

Don't settle for less without knowing it.

[Luigi]

"I think this subject/question was posted/proposed with all good intention as were the responses but I'm a bit concerned that it might do some damage (that may be too strong a word but it's late and I can't think of another) to a possible vocation out there."

O Sapientia:

This question was, indeed, posted with all good intention, and it never occurred to me that it might do some damage (I agree that may be too strong a word, but I know what you mean, and I've had the same -late-night-can't-think-of-a-better-word experience).

In my original post, I mentioned a balance sheet - ideas that would lead a discerner to believe s/he does have a vocation (perhaps to a particular order or perhaps in general) but also balanced by questions that one should examine - questions that they may not have thought of.

I also agree that finding one's vocation is not a solo flight - spiritual directors, vocation directions, parents, friends, the religious community itself - all of them should be involved in one person's decision. (Which raises another idea - one vocation is actually a group decision... interersting.) But finding one's vocation is kind of like driving someplace you've never been before - you're not sure where you're going, you're not familiar with the landscape, you don't really know the landmarks, maybe the road is not very well lit. If you're following directions, it's always useful to know when you've turned in the wrong direction ("If you get to Chez Pancakes, you've gone too far, so turn around and go back to the first street on the right" - that kind of indicator.). I just think that knowing some of the wrong reasons might be helpful to some discerners - it might help them figure out when they've turned in the wrong direction, and how to get back on the right track. Or at least know what they might need to work on in themselves before they're ready to make a commitment, or before the order is ready to accept them.

I also think that knowing the wrong reasons can save some discerners some heartache, or at least disappointment, discouragement, or lost time. TradMom mentioned that one of her daughters took it pretty hard when she (the daughter) left a house that she had thought was right for her - I know that can happen for a lot of reasons, but if knowing what to look for AND what to look out for helps someone get to their destination more quickly or more easily, then I think it's at least worth discussing.

Ciao.

[Mari Therese]

Perhaps Tradmom's daughter was only called to that convent for a short time, because God seemed to have put her in a place where she is much happier. Sometimes there are stepping stones in discernment that God uses to get us where he wants us.

A sister I talked to said that for most people who are honestly discerning their vocation will find that upon entering religious life there will always be some underlying selfish motivations. As long as for the most part, we are open, honest, and sincere, then I think that we'll all end up where God wants us to be.

[osapientia]

[quote name='Luigi' post='1745207' date='Jan 7 2009, 11:26 AM']"I think this subject/question was posted/proposed with all good intention as were the responses but I'm a bit concerned that it might do some damage (that may be too strong a word but it's late and I can't think of another) to a possible vocation out there."

O Sapientia:

This question was, indeed, posted with all good intention, and it never occurred to me that it might do some damage (I agree that may be too strong a word, but I know what you mean, and I've had the same -late-night-can't-think-of-a-better-word experience).

Ciao.[/quote]

Luigi,

Point well taken. My response was more about prudence around statements like "if this, then that"

I do think that a "list" could steer someone away from further discernment (if too many of their "reasons" are on that list) and that would be harmful and sad thing in my opinion because, as I said in my post last night, sometimes "real" reasons lie deeper than an expressed or articulated motivation. Some people need help to bring them to the surface.

Some people will make lists and do very well with that kind of process, others among us avoid lists at all costs. For me a list would be a disastrous form of the discernment process.

It's fine for persons to use a list, but it can be harmful for the list to use persons. Maybe that's what was really wanting to come out last evening and I couldn't find the words to articulate it. Methods are fine as long as we leave room for the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Last night I believed this thread to be a little too close to absolutes with one of the posts I read and that's what prompted my response.

By the way, in her autobiography, what St. Teresa de Avila says (paraphrase of course) is that she was so attractive to and attracted by members of the opposite sex that she determined that if she did not enter a convent, she would go to hell. Give that determination she further "discerned" that it would be better to be a nun than go to hell, so she entered religious life. So technically Teresa De Jesus' initial motivation for becoming a nun is a form of one of the items on the bad reasons list: she simply wanted to avoid hell.

I think more of us could offer to Jesus just whatever it is we have in our hands......whether we think it's good, bad or even ugly....if it's all we have, it's all we have.....it still belongs to Him....maybe He will do something amazing with it.

Pax

[Norseman82]

I also think part of the problem is that people don't have a proper understanding of what the Church teaches about vocations. We are not "vocationless" until we are hit over the head with a "grand sign" from above. According to CCC 1603, the vocation to [b]marriage[/b] is what was written into our very nature, so if we start out with the premise that marriage is our natural - some may even call it our default - vocation, we can better understand why the celibate vocation aka "virginity for the sake of the kingdom" has been traditionally referred to as a "higher calling".

Once we have a proper view of vocations, the next step is to ask ourselves two questions:

1) What am I eligible for?
2) What can I handle? Specifically, if you are considering a celibate vocation, do you feel you can handle lifelong celibacy? This point is important, because the "C word" is prominent in this part of the discussion, and I think the celibacy aspect of discernment sometimes may not be given enough attention, as some people encourage recklessness by telling people "don't worry, God will give you the grace to handle whatever state of life you are in" or people who bully others with the "whatsa matter, don't you trust God?" type of comments.

Once we see that as the foundations of vocational discernment, we can look to such things as what are talents are, what we are good at (our strengths and weaknesses), what attracts or repels us, etc.

[tinytherese]

Can't vocation directors usually detect when an inquirer might be discerning to their community for superficial reasons and guide them on to discerning more maturely?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1745395' date='Jan 7 2009, 05:48 PM']Can't vocation directors usually detect when an inquirer might be discerning to their community for superficial reasons and guide them on to discerning more maturely?[/quote]

They should. After all, priesthood preparation is a [b]minimum[/b] of 4 years (I say minimum because some may need to fulfill pre-theology or pre-philosophy requirements, and orders may require longer novitiates), so hopefully there should be ample time prior to ordination.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='DameAgnes' post='1744993' date='Jan 6 2009, 11:29 PM']I think it is remarkable that some can discover that while they joined for "the wrong reasons" they've discovered they had a vocation. It tells us that they were hearing God...just, perhaps not hearing Him so perfectly, at first! :-)[/quote]

I went to law school to make my mom happy. I didn't really want to be a lawyer. I hated law school, but ended up being a pretty decent lawyer, and begrudgingly admit that I enjoyed it as well.

[TeresaBenedicta]

You'd be surprised how many people may be called to join an order or go to seminary... just to be called back out of it eventually. And that's perfectly okay. As my priest once said, there's no better place to learn how to be a good Catholic man/husband than at the seminary. I think, for some people, that may be true with the religious life as well.

[Saint Therese]

I think sometimes the devil has a hand in cases where people hide poor motivations in order to enter a community or the priesthood.

[CatherineM]

People have used religious orders to escape for a long time. The problem is they tend to bring their problems with them behind the walls.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1745475' date='Jan 7 2009, 08:09 PM']You'd be surprised how many people may be called to join an order or go to seminary... just to be called back out of it eventually. And that's perfectly okay. As my priest once said, there's no better place to learn how to be a good Catholic man/husband than at the seminary. I think, for some people, that may be true with the religious life as well.[/quote]

I know of one such sister that left her order very recently. I met her in person on a vocations retreat, and wondered why she hadn't made her final vows yet. I asked her as such, because she had been there about 9 years, and she didn't have an answer. I found that odd. I wondered if it was because there was something missing from her life that she was trying to find. She left this past December, and all I know is that she knows what she is supposed to do now. Because of privacy and personal reasons, I won't divulge her name. I just continue to pray for her.

Edited January 8, 2009 by InHisLove726

[DameAgnes]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1745475' date='Jan 7 2009, 09:09 PM']You'd be surprised how many people may be called to join an order or go to seminary... just to be called back out of it eventually.[/quote]

That's very wise. God calls us where he will and there are a lot of "way stations" on a journey - it's possible that something you need to learn to live in one spot - needs to be taught to you in another.