Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1742227' date='Jan 3 2009, 05:57 PM']Your scenario is the government denying your mother health care coverage because she is not deemed viable or capable of contributing to society in a productive matter. 1-This assumes that the government would also actively prevent her from paying for her own health care that is refusing her the ability to seek health care. 2-It is still not euthanasia. It is not a "mercy killing" the end of the state is to conserve resources. If refusing to cover medical coverage is euthanasia then there is a great deal of legal euthanasia already present in the US[/quote] Semantics. Euthanasia is the snuffing out of an an innocent person's life from a false sense of mercy. No one has the right to take an innocent life. You really are blind to the ways of the world. No doubt for you abortion is simply a choice, and euthanasia is truly merciful. That a bureaucrat will decide who lives or dies is not a good thing, even if you believe that it is. Edited January 4, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 This conversation makes my stomach hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Saint Therese' post='1742235' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:02 PM']This conversation makes my stomach hurt.[/quote] And so it should, because we live in a time that is as fraught with danger and evil as the 1920s and 1930s in Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742232' date='Jan 3 2009, 09:01 PM']Semantics.[/quote] No, serious logical shortcomings in your argument. [quote]Euthanasia is the snuffing out of a life from a false sense of mercy.[/quote] correct, and in your scenario that was not the aim of the state, hence why it was not euthanasia. [quote]No one has the right to take an innocent life. You really are blind to the ways of the world. No doubt for you abortion is simply a choice, and euthanasia is truly merciful.[/quote] Right, as usual when you present a bad argument you fall back on attacking me as somehow "blind in the ways of the world" "morally bankrupt" etc etc etc. [quote]That a bureaucrat will decide who lives or dies is not a good thing, even if you believe that it is.[/quote] Let's see the problems here 1-Never said it was a good ting 2-You have yet to explain why it is morally superior for a bureaucrat in an insurance corporation to make such a decision. a few others but those are the big ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1742242' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:07 PM']correct, and in your scenario that was not the aim of the state, hence why it was not euthanasia.[/quote] To not give a person treatment who would improve with that treatment is euthanasia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742246' date='Jan 3 2009, 09:08 PM']To not give a person treatment who would improve with that treatment is euthanasia.[/quote] Then euthanasia is already legal and you are advocating a system that allows it. Of course this is if we adhere to your novel definition. Euthanasia is, for the rest of the world, "mercy killing". If I stab you and walk off when I know how to treat such a wound and save your life and have the means to do so then I have fulfilled your criteria for euthanasia. No one, of course, would call this euthanasia. Euthanasia is a "mercy killing" contingent on that end being present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1742242' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:07 PM']a few others but those are the big ones[/quote] Perhaps when you are taking care of your elderly mother you will have a different viewpoint. In 2006 I had to take my mother to the emergency room because she was suffering from pneumonia. Upon arriving there and being seen by a doctor she was told that she could be admitted to the hospital or she could go home and be comfortable there while taking some oral antibiotics. He told me that it didn't look good and that I should probably prepare for the worst. It took me more than an hour to convince my mother to be admitted to the hospital because the doctor had told her she would be less comfortable there than at home. She was finally admitted to the hospital at 300am and was given levaquin intravenously, which is what saved her life. She went home four days later and has been fine since. Later, when talking to my sister who is an LVN, she said that our mother would have died if she had gone home and that that doctor was a fool. If you do not think that there are people out there who really only see the bottom line, and that an elderly person is in some sense a burden, then you are a fool. Live a little life and then get back to me. Edited January 4, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 My sisterinlaw who lived in Spain died after 9 years of struggling with a brain tumor. She left no medical bills. My best friends daughter died of a brain tumor 19 years ago - they are still paying the bills. My ex-husband has prostate cancer and is working with coverage and chooses between paying co-pays and eating. My nephew has leukemia and even with insurance they will be paying the bills for the next 25 years or so. I could go on and on. Its wrong and not civilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1742285' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:35 PM']My sisterinlaw who lived in Spain died after 9 years of struggling with a brain tumor. She left no medical bills. My best friends daughter died of a brain tumor 19 years ago - they are still paying the bills. My ex-husband has prostate cancer and is working with coverage and chooses between paying co-pays and eating. My nephew has leukemia and even with insurance they will be paying the bills for the next 25 years or so.[/quote] I contracted viral encephalitis in 2007 and have tremors on the left side of my body, and I have no medical bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742171' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:15 PM']What I am opposed to is the federalization of the medical system. The federal government should stay out of it, because in the end a federal takeover of the medical system will bankrupt the country and destroy the medical system at the same time.[/quote] Has it bankrupted any of the other countries with health care? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just wondering which countries it has happened to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1742288' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:39 PM']Has it bankrupted any of the other countries with health care? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just wondering which countries it has happened to.[/quote] It hasn't yet, but countries like Sweden for example, pay extremely high taxes. If Americans are willing to pay more in taxes a federal take over will work for many years, but we will have to increase immigration as well, because the demographic shifts in our countries population toward a larger number of elderly persons will have a major impact on both revenue and expenditures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742182' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:22 PM']Yes, and that is why people come from all over the world to have operations in the United States.[/quote] How many Americans have plastic surgery in Mexico, or transplant surgery in Asia? People in Canada who come to the US for things like hip replacements for example are doing so not because they can not get the surgery here. They simply have the money to jump the que. Why should they wait for their fair turn in line if they are wealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1742287' date='Jan 3 2009, 09:37 PM']I contracted viral encephalitis in 2007 and have tremors on the left side of my body, and I have no medical bills.[/quote] THen consider yourself an exception to the rule, or is it because you live in California? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1742295' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:43 PM']How many Americans have plastic surgery in Mexico, or transplant surgery in Asia? People in Canada who come to the US for things like hip replacements for example are doing so not because they can not get the surgery here. They simply have the money to jump the que. Why should they wait for their fair turn in line if they are wealthy.[/quote] Canada has rationed health care, and that is exactly what the U.S. will get if there is a federal take over of the health care system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1742296' date='Jan 3 2009, 06:43 PM']THen consider yourself an exception to the rule, or is it because you live in California?[/quote] It is because I don't waste tremendous sums of my income on things that I do not need. Did I lose a large part of my savings because of my illness, yes, but that is life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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