Voodoo And Catholicism

[HisChildForever]

Last night my parents were watching a show on the History Channel (the show was a Biography). It centered around this woman in New Orleans who practices Voodoo (was in the outfit and everything; all white robes with a white turban-like hat). She was explaining the practices, beliefs, etc. and one of the things she was saying was that Voodoo and Catholicism are very similar. She was saying that the Saints were like their gods - you "petition" the lower gods to reach the higher gods. And the camera was showing small wax figures of Christ, and then another of Mary holding the Christ child, presumably on a Voodoo altar. Also, she discussed how one spirit of a famous Voodoo practitioner roams one cemetery, and the woman was saying that "Just like the Saints she is very much real."

That's all I caught because I left the room after I was done eating.

I just did a Google search to clarify this story better, and I came across Amazon which is selling the DVD. The title is "Voodoo Secrets" and here is the description -

[quote]A cult of magic spells diabolical curses satanic worship human sacrifice zombies and dolls stuck with pins - Experts explain how over the past few centuries the ancient religion of Voodoo has been systematically maligned persecuted and nearly wiped out. To uncover the truth behind Voodoo we travel to where it began at least 5000 years ago on the central west coast of Africa. In the tiny nation of Benin Voodoo is practiced today as it has been for thousands of years. Our cameras captured a rarely-seen event--an African Voodoo ceremony with animal sacrifice. We also investigate grisly events blamed on Voodoo such as: the sinking of a ferry in Haiti that killed 200 people and was blamed on a Voodoo curse; death of Michael Tallant author of the 1947 bestseller Voodoo in New Orleans; and how Marie Laveau the "Queen of Voodoo" in New Orleans saved two men from the gallows in 1850. Could these tales be true?[/quote]

One user left a rather long comment and I think this is very interesting (about the woman) -

[quote]Perhaps the most interesting bit of information this documentary presents is voodoo's interrelationship with other religions. New Orleans' most famous voodoo priestess, Marie Laveau, we are told, was a devout Catholic who attended Mass daily, and at least one voodoo group featured here believes that other religions can actually enhance the powers of voodoo. Another interesting bit of information is the Supreme Court's unanimous 1993 decision that protects animal sacrifice for religious purposes.[/quote]

Another poster...rather misguided...

[quote]This documentary basically says, "Yes, animal sacrifices are involved and yes, it can be used for evil purposes, but voodoo is a long-standing, highly-numerous religion that deserves respect." I'm cool with that! The documentary implies, "Why is it that Saint Patrick, who rid Ireland of snakes, is respected, but an African god whose symbol is the snake is viewed as dangerous?" Right on! Fight the Eurocentrism![/quote]

Link to Amazin : [url="http://www.amazon.com/Voodoo-Secrets-History-Channel/dp/B000CSTK7E"]http://www.amazon.com/Voodoo-Secrets-Histo...l/dp/B000CSTK7E[/url]

So, basically...has anyone ever heard of this? What does the Church say about this perversion of Catholicism?

[T-Bone _]

Voodoo stole many aspects of Catholicism, and combined them nature religions of Africa--hence the "simularities".

The Church is against Voodoo, like all false religions.

[Era Might]

One of my professors last semester was Haitian, and he practices voodoo. He said that there is a lot of syncretism in Haiti. He said that sometimes someone will have, for example, a picture of St. Patrick in their home, so that if someone asks their religion, they can point to the picture of St. Patrick and say that they are Catholic. But he said that they use St. Patrick because of the snakes, which have some connection with voodoo.

There was an "anti-superstition campaign" by the Church in Haiti in the 1940s. Part of the reason why voodoo is so strong is because of its cultural role. It is seen as something that connects Haitians with their ancestors, their culture, etc. Catholicism is seen by some as a colonial imposition, because it was introduced to the new world along with European colonial powers. According to my professor, Haitians are hesitant to admit to practicing voodoo, because of the social stigma attached. But he said that many Haitians have some relationship to voodoo. It's very much a cultural thing. I don't think they try to convert people to voodoo, it's more of a family tradition to them.

Voodoo is a difficult problem for the Church to deal with, because it is connected with issues of culture, identity, history, colonialism, etc. Many of the slaves in the Caribbean mixed Catholicism with their traditional African religions, which is why voodoo incorporates many Catholic elements. I don't think it's accurate to say they "stole" elements of Catholicism; it was more a gradual process of syncretism. They combined their traditional religions with the new religion (Catholicism) that they were introduced to when they came to the new world as slaves.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1742674' date='Jan 4 2009, 01:52 PM']One of my professors last semester was Haitian, and he practices voodoo. He said that there is a lot of syncretism in Haiti. He said that sometimes someone will have, for example, a picture of St. Patrick in their home, so that if someone asks their religion, they can point to the picture of St. Patrick and say that they are Catholic. But he said that they use St. Patrick because of the snakes, which have some connection with voodoo.

There was an "anti-superstition campaign" by the Church in Haiti in the 1940s. Part of the reason why voodoo is so strong is because of its cultural role. It is seen as something that connects Haitians with their ancestors, their culture, etc. Catholicism is seen by some as a colonial imposition, because it was introduced to the new world along with European colonial powers. According to my professor, Haitians are hesitant to admit to practicing voodoo, because of the social stigma attached. But he said that many Haitians have some relationship to voodoo. It's very much a cultural thing. I don't think they try to convert people to voodoo, it's more of a family tradition to them.

Voodoo is a difficult problem for the Church to deal with, because it is connected with issues of culture, identity, history, colonialism, etc. Many of the slaves in the Caribbean mixed Catholicism with their traditional African religions, which is why voodoo incorporates many Catholic elements. I don't think it's accurate to say they "stole" elements of Catholicism; it was more a gradual process of syncretism. They combined their traditional religions with the new religion (Catholicism) that they were introduced to when they came to the new world as slaves.[/quote]

That's very interesting, thanks.

How do they justify "voodoo dolls" if their religion is woven with certain Catholic elements?

[Nihil Obstat]

Sounds very very similar to Wicca and witchcraft and Satanism.
The fact remains that no matter what they say about it, no matter what positive spin they put on it, there is no "white magic", no "good" way to use magic; it's always evil. It's always Satan.
No matter what sort of syncretism they've tried to apply, it's still evil.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1742709' date='Jan 4 2009, 02:44 PM']Sounds very very similar to Wicca and witchcraft and Satanism.
The fact remains that no matter what they say about it, no matter what positive spin they put on it, there is no "white magic", no "good" way to use magic; it's always evil. It's always Satan.
No matter what sort of syncretism they've tried to apply, it's still evil.[/quote]

Yeah, I was thinking that because there was a lot of focus on this cemetery spirit and the way the biography was filmed, there was the shady music, the candles, the dark lighting...in all honesty this was probably done to arouse interest in the show but there had to be some reason behind it.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1742712' date='Jan 4 2009, 01:47 PM']Yeah, I was thinking that because there was a lot of focus on this cemetery spirit and the way the biography was filmed, there was the shady music, the candles, the dark lighting...in all honesty this was probably done to arouse interest in the show but there had to be some reason behind it.[/quote]
Unfortunately there's just too much interest in occultism these days.
Stems from greed I think, and arrogance. People want more than anyone deserves, and they think they deserve it. More than that, they don't care what they have to do to get what they want.
They want to be some special elite, have these secret rituals that only the initiated participate in. They want powers that not only should they not have, but they see as making them more than others. No matter what they want to use it for.

[Tinkerlina]

From what I understand voodoo is what happened when paganism/superstitions of the indiginous people of Haiti mixed with the Catholicism of French colonists. I think it was kind of their way of fitting in the "new" religion with the old beliefs. I believe th Catholic elements are largely more aesthetic than anything else and definitely not indicative of any real Catholic beliefs. -Katie

[Vincent Vega]

There was a Hatian young lady who joined not too long ago, and talked about this...I'll see if I can point this thread out to her.

[Tinkerlina]

Come to think of it, I suppose it's not that much different from the mixture of the pagan customs of other cultures with Catholicism, although it is more defined. For example, when I was in Spain, some friends of my aunt were talking about saints and there is some Saint I've never heard of and there's this rhyme kind of prayer to him and it's actually kind of vulgar and in no way a real prayer and you're supposed to have a thread or something and untie it as you say the prayer. I've also seen prayers to saints that have what I consider to be questionable promises-for example, my mom says these prayers of St. Bridget of Sweden that supposedly if you say them so many times no one in your family will go to hell, you'll never suffer loss of senses (senses as in hearing, seeing etc), 5 generations of your family will be delivered from purgatory, an angel will appear to you like 3 days before you die to warn you....it goes on and while I'm sure the prayer itself is OK I don't know if such promises should really be attatched, seems to me a little pagan. -Katie

Edited January 4, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Ziggamafu]

Given the contemporary usage of the English word "magic", it annoys me that Satan seems to have a monopoly on the usage of the word. I love the word "magic" and often use it to describe the things in my life that I love.

Here is an old post of mine from a blog:

Many non-Catholic Christians have a gripe (or fear) of one particular aspect of Catholicism: it seems awfully similar to magic. Such complaints are not far off base. The mystery and ritual of it all – incense, oils, candles, robes, formulaic prayers, and more – make the Catholic Church look like it belongs in the pages of a fantasy novel. Catholic Christianity has certainly had an exciting plotline! Stories of good leaders struggling to keep the forces of evil at bay and stories of good peasants driving out the infiltrating forces of evil from among Church leadership abound. Every century of Catholicism, it seems, has been full of drama the likes of which Shakespeare could only dream about.

Places of worship resembling castles, towers, or earthy hobbit-holes house blessed odds and ends, volumes upon volumes of sacred texts, and the bones of ancient heroes buried beneath an altar. Legends and folklore abound, and any elderly Catholic will be happy to share a story with the willing. Chants and songs can relax or excite the mind and soul, taking the keen listener away from struggles left (with all other mental baggage) outside of the heavy sanctuary doors. Even the vibrant tapestries and banners change color with the seasons, bringing to mind the night sky's swimming journey through the year, and signaling a deeper shift in spiritual reflection.

The similarities to magic grow stronger. For beyond mere appearances, very real supernatural occurrences have been claimed by thousands upon thousands of witnesses. The story of Our Lady of Fatima contains perhaps the most well documented and irrefutable miracle since the resurrection of Christ. Some occurrences are ongoing and dare the skeptic to make an investigation. Take the allegedly ongoing apparitions of Mary in Medjugorje, a small village in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which have enough credible evidence behind them that a hardened skeptic, Rolling Stone editor Randall Sullivan, walked away a believer and wrote a book about his experiences. Or visit any one of the long dead saints whose body – or at least a part of it, say, the heart or tongue – has mysteriously remained incorrupt without the aid of any embalming or preservation techniques.

Blessed salt, sacramental artifacts, holy water, healing springs, weeping statues, archaic languages, bleeding crucifixes, and the love of the physical along with the metaphysical, Catholics sure do seem to be involved in a magical form of Christianity. And you know what? We are. I love every bit of it. Makes me feel like a kid again. There is, however, one blessed difference between "magic" (as it is traditionally defined) and the spirit of Catholicism. Whereas magic seeks to control life and bend the universe to the will of man, Catholic Christianity seeks to surrender life and bend the universe to the will of God. Whereas magic attempts to control God, Catholicism attempts to obey God. See? Magical, but not magic.

I think the reason some non-Catholics take issue with all the pomp and honor given to life and worship by us Catholics is a fear of the physical. Catholicism certainly doesn't fear the physical. God made it. We're in it. We enjoy it. Hilaire Belloc said it best:
[i]
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino![/i]

Not only do we enjoy the physical, but we uphold the belief that God conveys his grace through the physical. Just a few of the many, many examples from Scripture:

2 Kings 5:10 – Naaman must dip in the Jordan seven times to be healed.

2 Kings 13:20ff – Elisha's bones bring the dead to life.

John 9:6 – Jesus used mud to bring sight to the blind. Ironic, huh?

Acts 15:5 – God even used Peter's shadow to heal people.

For these reasons and especially because the sacraments of the Church come directly from Christ, Catholic Christianity may be magical, but is certainly not guilty of the sin of magic as it is suspected by a few leery non-Catholics.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1742723' date='Jan 4 2009, 03:07 PM']Come to think of it, I suppose it's not that much different from the mixture of the pagan customs of other cultures with Catholicism, although it is more defined. For example, when I was in Spain, some friends of my aunt were talking about saints and there is some Saint I've never heard of and there's this rhyme kind of prayer to him and it's actually kind of vulgar and in no way a real prayer and you're supposed to have a thread or something and untie it as you say the prayer. I've also seen prayers to saints that have what I consider to be questionable promises-for example, my mom says these prayers of St. Bridget of Sweden that supposedly if you say them so many times no one in your family will go to hell, you'll never suffer loss of senses (senses as in hearing, seeing etc), 5 generations of your family will be delivered from purgatory, an angel will appear to you like 3 days before you die to warn you....it goes on and while I'm sure the prayer itself is OK I don't know if such promises should really be attatched, seems to me a little pagan. -Katie[/quote]

Those prayers came from private revelation which are not necessary for salvation, but I think the Church has approved of them.

Source: [url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/8229/english.htm"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/8229/english.htm[/url]

[quote]"I received 5480 blows on My Body. If you wish to honor them in some way, say 15 Our Fathers and 15 Hail Marys with the following Prayers (which He taught her) for a whole year. When the year is up, you will have honored each one of My Wounds." Our Lord made the following promises to anyone who recited the 15 St. Bridget Prayers every day for a whole year[/quote]

[quote]These prayers are published under sanction of the Decree of November 18, 1986, published in the Acts Apostolicae Sedis, Vol. 58, No. 16 of December 29, 1966.

PRAYERS approved by Pope Pius IX Magnificent Prormses to Saint Bridget of Sweden[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1742729' date='Jan 4 2009, 03:23 PM']Given the contemporary usage of the English word "magic", it annoys me that Satan seems to have a monopoly on the usage of the word. I love the word "magic" and often use it to describe the things in my life that I love.

Here is an old post of mine from a blog:

Many non-Catholic Christians have a gripe (or fear) of one particular aspect of Catholicism: it seems awfully similar to magic. Such complaints are not far off base. The mystery and ritual of it all – incense, oils, candles, robes, formulaic prayers, and more – make the Catholic Church look like it belongs in the pages of a fantasy novel. Catholic Christianity has certainly had an exciting plotline! Stories of good leaders struggling to keep the forces of evil at bay and stories of good peasants driving out the infiltrating forces of evil from among Church leadership abound. Every century of Catholicism, it seems, has been full of drama the likes of which Shakespeare could only dream about.

Places of worship resembling castles, towers, or earthy hobbit-holes house blessed odds and ends, volumes upon volumes of sacred texts, and the bones of ancient heroes buried beneath an altar. Legends and folklore abound, and any elderly Catholic will be happy to share a story with the willing. Chants and songs can relax or excite the mind and soul, taking the keen listener away from struggles left (with all other mental baggage) outside of the heavy sanctuary doors. Even the vibrant tapestries and banners change color with the seasons, bringing to mind the night sky's swimming journey through the year, and signaling a deeper shift in spiritual reflection.

The similarities to magic grow stronger. For beyond mere appearances, very real supernatural occurrences have been claimed by thousands upon thousands of witnesses. The story of Our Lady of Fatima contains perhaps the most well documented and irrefutable miracle since the resurrection of Christ. Some occurrences are ongoing and dare the skeptic to make an investigation. Take the allegedly ongoing apparitions of Mary in Medjugorje, a small village in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which have enough credible evidence behind them that a hardened skeptic, Rolling Stone editor Randall Sullivan, walked away a believer and wrote a book about his experiences. Or visit any one of the long dead saints whose body – or at least a part of it, say, the heart or tongue – has mysteriously remained incorrupt without the aid of any embalming or preservation techniques.

Blessed salt, sacramental artifacts, holy water, healing springs, weeping statues, archaic languages, bleeding crucifixes, and the love of the physical along with the metaphysical, Catholics sure do seem to be involved in a magical form of Christianity. And you know what? We are. I love every bit of it. Makes me feel like a kid again. There is, however, one blessed difference between "magic" (as it is traditionally defined) and the spirit of Catholicism. Whereas magic seeks to control life and bend the universe to the will of man, Catholic Christianity seeks to surrender life and bend the universe to the will of God. Whereas magic attempts to control God, Catholicism attempts to obey God. See? Magical, but not magic.

I think the reason some non-Catholics take issue with all the pomp and honor given to life and worship by us Catholics is a fear of the physical. Catholicism certainly doesn't fear the physical. God made it. We're in it. We enjoy it. Hilaire Belloc said it best:
[i]
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino![/i]

Not only do we enjoy the physical, but we uphold the belief that God conveys his grace through the physical. Just a few of the many, many examples from Scripture:

2 Kings 5:10 – Naaman must dip in the Jordan seven times to be healed.

2 Kings 13:20ff – Elisha's bones bring the dead to life.

John 9:6 – Jesus used mud to bring sight to the blind. Ironic, huh?

Acts 15:5 – God even used Peter's shadow to heal people.

For these reasons and especially because the sacraments of the Church come directly from Christ, Catholic Christianity may be magical, but is certainly not guilty of the sin of magic as it is suspected by a few leery non-Catholics.[/quote]

Beautiful post. Another big distinction is that we - as Catholics - know that all power and authority rests in God, and we by no means try and get a taste of this for ourselves. We surrender to God, whereas those who practice the occult want otherworldly abilities.

Edited January 4, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1742747' date='Jan 4 2009, 04:58 PM']Those prayers came from private revelation which are not necessary for salvation, but I think the Church has approved of them.

Source: [url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/8229/english.htm"]http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Marble/8229/english.htm[/url][/quote]

Ah, ok. I guess the list of promises just seemed a little strange to me-but if the Church approved them, the Church approved them. -Katie

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1742729' date='Jan 4 2009, 02:23 PM']Given the contemporary usage of the English word "magic", it annoys me that Satan seems to have a monopoly on the usage of the word. I love the word "magic" and often use it to describe the things in my life that I love.

Here is an old post of mine from a blog:

Many non-Catholic Christians have a gripe (or fear) of one particular aspect of Catholicism: it seems awfully similar to magic. Such complaints are not far off base. The mystery and ritual of it all – incense, oils, candles, robes, formulaic prayers, and more – make the Catholic Church look like it belongs in the pages of a fantasy novel. Catholic Christianity has certainly had an exciting plotline! Stories of good leaders struggling to keep the forces of evil at bay and stories of good peasants driving out the infiltrating forces of evil from among Church leadership abound. Every century of Catholicism, it seems, has been full of drama the likes of which Shakespeare could only dream about.

Places of worship resembling castles, towers, or earthy hobbit-holes house blessed odds and ends, volumes upon volumes of sacred texts, and the bones of ancient heroes buried beneath an altar. Legends and folklore abound, and any elderly Catholic will be happy to share a story with the willing. Chants and songs can relax or excite the mind and soul, taking the keen listener away from struggles left (with all other mental baggage) outside of the heavy sanctuary doors. Even the vibrant tapestries and banners change color with the seasons, bringing to mind the night sky's swimming journey through the year, and signaling a deeper shift in spiritual reflection.

The similarities to magic grow stronger. For beyond mere appearances, very real supernatural occurrences have been claimed by thousands upon thousands of witnesses. The story of Our Lady of Fatima contains perhaps the most well documented and irrefutable miracle since the resurrection of Christ. Some occurrences are ongoing and dare the skeptic to make an investigation. Take the allegedly ongoing apparitions of Mary in Medjugorje, a small village in Bosnia-Hercegovina, which have enough credible evidence behind them that a hardened skeptic, Rolling Stone editor Randall Sullivan, walked away a believer and wrote a book about his experiences. Or visit any one of the long dead saints whose body – or at least a part of it, say, the heart or tongue – has mysteriously remained incorrupt without the aid of any embalming or preservation techniques.

Blessed salt, sacramental artifacts, holy water, healing springs, weeping statues, archaic languages, bleeding crucifixes, and the love of the physical along with the metaphysical, Catholics sure do seem to be involved in a magical form of Christianity. And you know what? We are. I love every bit of it. Makes me feel like a kid again. There is, however, one blessed difference between "magic" (as it is traditionally defined) and the spirit of Catholicism. Whereas magic seeks to control life and bend the universe to the will of man, Catholic Christianity seeks to surrender life and bend the universe to the will of God. Whereas magic attempts to control God, Catholicism attempts to obey God. See? Magical, but not magic.

I think the reason some non-Catholics take issue with all the pomp and honor given to life and worship by us Catholics is a fear of the physical. Catholicism certainly doesn't fear the physical. God made it. We're in it. We enjoy it. Hilaire Belloc said it best:
[i]
Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's always laughter and good red wine.
At least I've always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino![/i]

Not only do we enjoy the physical, but we uphold the belief that God conveys his grace through the physical. Just a few of the many, many examples from Scripture:

2 Kings 5:10 – Naaman must dip in the Jordan seven times to be healed.

2 Kings 13:20ff – Elisha's bones bring the dead to life.

John 9:6 – Jesus used mud to bring sight to the blind. Ironic, huh?

Acts 15:5 – God even used Peter's shadow to heal people.

For these reasons and especially because the sacraments of the Church come directly from Christ, Catholic Christianity may be magical, but is certainly not guilty of the sin of magic as it is suspected by a few leery non-Catholics.[/quote]
I think you're very right to make this important distinction. It's a fine line, in some ways, between true religion and magic (sometimes not). I guess what you could say is that magic (what we call magic now) seeks to, as man, do what only God may do.