cheryl Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1741400' date='Jan 2 2009, 12:26 PM']I think one uses the Catechism as the starting point for understanding a teaching, not neccessarily an endpoint. What exactly is your difficulty?[/quote] That the grace of God-the grace of conversion is limited to this life. The curse of sin extends all the way to hell-and yet how can we sing, "He makes his blessings flow far as the curse is found", if his blessings do not extend as far as hell itself? Sorry I haven't responded until now--life got in the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 [quote name='cheryl' post='1746290' date='Jan 8 2009, 03:47 PM']That the grace of God-the grace of conversion is limited to this life. The curse of sin extends all the way to hell-and yet how can we sing, "He makes his blessings flow far as the curse is found", if his blessings do not extend as far as hell itself?[/quote] Answer this question, what good could God's blessings do for those who are in hell? Once a person dies, if they are in the state of mortal sin, there is no "make it better clause" or "second chance clause" so what would God's blessings do for them? Hell is a punishment that those who rejected God's love in their life are to suffer the consequences of their decisions and actions. If a child were to steal something a parent would not say "Good for you, son!", a good and loving parent would tell their that what they did was wrong and there would be consequences for such behavior. God is a just and loving parent and lets us endure the consequences of our actions. He doesn't ignore them because that isn't loving, it's foolish and God is definitely not foolish. The consequence of unrepented mortal sin is Hell, which is the complete absence of feeling God. It isn't sugar coated because these souls have rejected God's love. God still loves these souls because He loves all that He creates. If He did not love them then they would not exist, so in a way God does reach out to those souls in Hell. He continues to love them even though they do not love Him in return or feel His love, because Hell is complete absence of the feeling of God . All that God wills is done out of love and it's often times impossible for us to wrap our minds around it. I would recommend reading Hans Urs Von Balthasar on the subject of Holy Saturday but it can be confusing so take your time and have a theological dictionary handy if your not used to the terms. It's pretty advanced reading so be prepared! Edit: for those who are interested Mysterium Paschale is where Von Balthasar speaks of Holy Saturday in length Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Oh. Dude. And "The Being Dead of the Son of God" is the best chapter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 All men shall see the face of the Lord, but the experience of His presence will not be the same for each individual: for the saints in heaven shall receive the gift of beatitude and will participate in the divine glory in varying degrees, while those who are damned will receive eternal pain and ruin corresponding to the lack of virtue practiced in their earthly life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1746874' date='Jan 9 2009, 01:50 AM']All men shall see the face of the Lord, but the experience of His presence will not be the same for each individual: for the saints in heaven shall receive the gift of beatitude and will participate in the divine glory in varying degrees, while those who are damned will receive eternal pain and ruin corresponding to the lack of virtue practiced in their earthly life.[/quote] so beautiful and horrifing at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 [quote name='StColette' post='1746308' date='Jan 8 2009, 02:09 PM']. . . The consequence of unrepented mortal sin is Hell, which is the complete absence of God. . . .[/quote] Everything that has being exists in God (cf. Acts 17:28), even the damned in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1746899' date='Jan 9 2009, 01:10 AM']Everything that has being exists in God (cf. Acts 17:28), even the damned in hell.[/quote] Sorry I should have clarified a little better. Absence meaning they don't feel the presence of God. He's there but they just can't feel it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheryl Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 I know that there have been other replies since I wrote my response on another thread. See [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=89237&st=0&gopid=1755813&#entry1755813"]here[/url]. I thank each of you for taking the time to respond. I wanted to address everyone's concerns, but I'm not feeling good at all (and don't know when I will be up to posting again-I've been sick off and on since before Christmas). So I think I have no choice but to take a hiatus from Phatmass. Please pray that I get better-I'm tired of being sick. And I'm really sorry for not replying to everyone. God bless, Cheryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 May God grant you many blessed years: in peace, health, and happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sistersintigo Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 [quote name='cheryl' date='19 January 2009 - 07:07 PM' timestamp='1232406470' post='1755825'] I know that there have been other replies since I wrote my response on another thread. See [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=89237&st=0&gopid=1755813&#entry1755813"]here[/url]. I thank each of you for taking the time to respond. I wanted to address everyone's concerns, but I'm not feeling good at all (and don't know when I will be up to posting again-I've been sick off and on since before Christmas). So I think I have no choice but to take a hiatus from Phatmass. Please pray that I get better-I'm tired of being sick. And I'm really sorry for not replying to everyone. God bless, Cheryl [/quote] Ever hear the expression, "Sick and tired of being sick and tired"? Today is a year later and I hope and pray that you are in a more restful, stable place now. Only, don't give up. another expression: The only way out, is through. Hang in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Cheryl seemed like a very nice, genuine person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Hi Cheryl, I could get into a long detailed thing here, but I'll save that for others. I prefer getting to the point [quote name='cheryl' date='01 January 2009 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1230850402' post='1740771'] In short I find myself in direct opposition to catechetical statements such as: CC: 633: "...Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him." Although for brevity's sake, I'll refrain from elaborating on why the Roman Catholic position is so hurtful to me, suffice to say, I feel as if I'm being plunged back into a sort of evangelical fundamentalism --for me, a very dark place to be. [/quote] This sounds like a hope-filled statement to me... keep in mind the word "hell" is referring more to a common afterlife shared by all who died before the judgment of Christ. It's not the post-judgment eternal damnation hell. [quote name='cheryl' date='01 January 2009 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1230850402' post='1740771'] This ... has given rise to scrupulosity among other more serious spiritual struggles in me. [/quote] Pride is the cause of scrupulosity. It's an excessive focus on one's own sin and trust in one's own works instead of trusting in the work of Christ, believing that "I should be better" and losing hope that forgiveness and redemption are available. It is a very serious spiritual disease; it saps people dry of their joy and tempts them to fall away from Christ altogether. I have no doubt the Catholic doctrine of sin can be used to bring about this disease, but pride is the root cause. [quote name='cheryl' date='01 January 2009 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1230850402' post='1740771'] In conclusion, I don't really want to argue. My heart can't take that right now. But if anyone has any constructive thoughts I'd greatly appreciate them! What do you do with a person that is not fully Roman Catholic and not fully Eastern Orthodox, but a mixture. (If they had a child, I'd be it lol). I am in desperate need of the Sacraments---that's the clincher---that's what makes trying to assent to this or that Church such a priority for me . I've written to the Eastern Byzantine Catholic Church in the hope of putting these issues to rest, but they have yet to respond. [/quote] You can always adore Christ in the Eucharist, worship Him at Divine Liturgy or Mass, and most of all, pray. Remember that Jesus is the Prince of Peace: know that He will give you peace and eventually lead you to the right place. Personally, I see where you're coming from, and that's why I appreciate the balance that Eastern Christianity brings to sometimes overly logical Western Christian doctrine Major League Baseball has its own "Filioque" of sorts in the designated hitter position: the American League believes in it and the National League does not. In a game between an NL and AL team, they follow the practice of the home team's league, and that's fair enough. There are fans on either side who adamantly believe the other side should change, and while I personally prefer having the pitcher take a swing at the plate, I don't want either league to change it's rules. Now, baseball holds no eternal consequences for our souls, so it's a bit easier to share a common breaking of the bread. As Christians, we need to be faithful to our Tradition, Western or Eastern, and trust that we still share in the same sacraments and someday the Holy Spirit will finally bring about the tangible unity of our Churches that we shared for 1,000 years. Anyway, I don't think it's the theology and doctrine that are really the issue, though they are part of it. Keep praying and seeking rest in God... and He'll help you sort through the doctrinal issues in a timely and peaceful fashion. In Christ, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 You're about a year late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='27 February 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1267308380' post='2063899'] You're about a year late. [/quote] You never know who might stroll by here... could be right on time for somebody else. Edited February 27, 2010 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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