I Can't Deal Anymore,

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='cheryl' post='1741383' date='Jan 2 2009, 12:06 PM']I don't understand why God's grace is being limited. As if this world, was the only place where, "grace abounds all the more". As if, "he comes to make his blessing flow...far as the curse is found." is not on its face, a true statement. I very much believe in freewill...but I think it's been taken to an extreme...just like belief in the providence of God can be taken to the opposite extreme...ie double-predestination. It's created for me, a dualistic world-view where other creatures can permanently thwart God's will. As if some things are outside the realm of divine providence. Why pray, "Thy will be done..." when we know that in some things, at the very least it won't be....which caste doubt on everything...so when bad things happen...one is forced to cry, "God where are you?" in the sense that God has been defeated. As for universal salvation, I'm still working through the issue of salvation in general....so I don't have an opinion, other than actively praying that all will be saved.[/quote]

I'm still having a hard time placing what teaching troubles you, then...perhaps you can detail Church teaching on salvation and the Judgment [i]as you understand it [/i]so that we can see if something needs to be corrected?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1741422' date='Jan 2 2009, 12:50 PM']I'm not a mod. If you want, I can send it to your email. I don't know how to paste the document without losing all of the footnotes.[/quote]
clean out your pm inbox

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1741432' date='Jan 2 2009, 01:03 PM']clean out your pm inbox [/quote]

Oops. Done!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cheryl' post='1740771' date='Jan 1 2009, 06:53 PM']I have been plagued by a couple of issues that I really need to discuss. As you know, I want to become Roman Catholic, but there are things that are holding me back--theologically speaking. My beliefs, conscience ect has been formed not only by Roman Catholicism, but also by Eastern Orthodoxy. As such I find that I am not able to agree with everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches (as I had previously hoped). I suppose I had pushed this fact to the back of my mind, hoping that I would be okay with everything---eventually. The reason I cannot agree is both practical and theological---theological, because I find myself affirming the Eastern Orthodox position rather than the Roman Catholic position and practical because it's effects on my personal life is something I must continual fight rather than embrace. In other words, these Roman Catholic positions (positions not unique to them, but shared to some degree by Protestantism) have had a negative effect on my relationship with Christ. They have proved detrimental and damaging.[/quote]

It's awesome that you care so much about theology, and I don't intend to discourage your thinking about these matters, but I do have to wonder how much you practice a simple devotion to Christ? For example, sitting in silence to pray or simply meditate on Scripture... pushing out all thoughts on its theological interpretation... and simply opening your mind and heart to what God could be asking of you and what personal sacrifices he desires. I'm a Catholic because I am convinced it is the truth and I hope I would die for that if necessary, but I do think some people can become Catholic yet lose their soul.

I have a friend who, like you, feels leanings in different directions. He became Catholic at one point, then became Orthodox, was Evangelical for a while, returned to attending Mass, and now he's attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and for the time being isn't committing to anything. I think someday he may quit attending church alltogether or be one of those limbo Christians (like the Baptists who attend Catholic Charismatic prayer services). I don't think it's spiritually healthy to live that way. That's my concern when I read you struggling so much with theology and its effect on your spiritual life. Remember, you can have everything and not have love -- and in the end you'll have nothing. If you're not falling in love with Christ, something is wrong and I think your theology may only be a manifestation of something deeper. I may be wrong... take it to God in prayer. He's a better guide than I

[quote name='cheryl' post='1740771' date='Jan 1 2009, 06:53 PM']The first pertains to the afterlife. Bishop Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church states it better than I could, if you wouldn't mind reading what he wrote, for my sake. Here's the link, "[url="http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx"]Christ the Conqueror of Hell[/url]". In short I find myself in direct opposition to catechetical statements such as:

CC: 633: "...Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him."

Although for brevity's sake, I'll refrain from elaborating on why the Roman Catholic position is so hurtful to me, suffice to say, I feel as if I'm being plunged back into a sort of evangelical fundamentalism --for me, a very dark place to be.[/quote]

Bishop Hilarion... saw him on Comedy Central last night... funny guy!

Can you copy-and-paste some of the key paragraphs from that link? I started to read it, but I'm not seeing what the real differences are between Western and Eastern thought. I'm sure Apotheoun can expound on it.

What I do know is there's a difference between the Hades spoken of in the Bible and what Christians (at least in the West) have come to know as Hell. Hades is basically a general term for the afterlife, judgement notwithtanding, and Hell is post-judgment. That is, after the Second Coming. FWIW, if by universal salvation you are wondering if all people might be saved, I'm pretty sure that heresy was refuted well before the Great Schism. Remember Jesus preaching about the sheep and the goats, and the wheat and chaffe. Some people do not want to be with God, not in this life and especially not the next, and God cannot force His Presence upon the unwilling. He invites and prompts all people by grace, but he cannot impose.

[quote name='cheryl' post='1740771' date='Jan 1 2009, 06:53 PM']The second issue I struggle with is the distinction of mortal and venial sin (which is something else, fairly alien to Eastern Orthodox thought). This (in it's modified Lutheran form), and now in it's Roman Catholic manifestation, has given rise to scrupulosity among other more serious spiritual struggles in me. It forms no genuine part of my relationship to God, but instead distracts me from progressing forward as if it weren't enough just to work out one's salvation, but that Divine punishment must become a factor. In this too, I align myself more closely with the Eastern Orthodox in that, I perceive sin as a disease needing to be healed. It's difficult to see Christ in everyone, even sinners, and at the same time try to incorporate such distinction of sins into one's theological worldview. When I look at people, I see suffering, sickness and a crucified Christ, not individuals potentially on their way to hell or potentially devoid of saving grace. What else is saving grace than the crucified Christ and what is stronger the disease (Adam's rebellion) or the cure (Christ's obedience). Freewill for me is irrelevant. Of course I believe in freewill! But freewill for me is a gift, a grace, not a means by which we can tie God's hands saying, "Oh God really wants to save them...but alas.....". Nothing is impossible with God. Freewill does not diminish God's power to save. How can I say that anyone is devoid of saving, sanctifying grace, when I see Christ, the author of that grace in everyone?[/quote]

Gabriel's good news that "nothing shall be impossible with God" is not a literal statement. Many things are, indeed, impossible with God. He cannot change. He cannot develop a Fourth Person in the Godhead. He cannot deprive us of our free will. He cannot make Satan submit to His authority. "Nothing shall be impossible with God" is a poetic statement. By conceiving Christ in the womb of the Virgin by the Holy Spirit and conceiving John the Baptist in Elizabeth's barren womb, the power of God was silently manifested through the miracle of creating human life. It is worth noting the pride of place that procreation and passing on the faith to the next generation held in Jewish culture. They were sons of Abraham and the more sons Abraham has, the greatness of Abraham and Israel (and God's promises to them) are made known to the world.

I think the Eastern and Western schools of thought on sin can be reconciled. By the very fact that it's possible for a person to reject God means there is such a thing as mortal sin. If your concern is with those who live in fear of mortal sin, let it be known that's not how we are called to live. Scrupulosity is a spiritual disease that needs compassionate pastoral care. I'm not sure if that's the issue you have with the teaching of venial/mortal sin.

[quote name='cheryl' post='1740771' date='Jan 1 2009, 06:53 PM']In conclusion, I don't really want to argue. My heart can't take that right now. But if anyone has any constructive thoughts I'd greatly appreciate them! What do you do with a person that is not fully Roman Catholic and not fully Eastern Orthodox, but a mixture. (If they had a child, I'd be it lol). I am in desperate need of the Sacraments---that's the clincher---that's what makes trying to assent to this or that Church such a priority for me . I've written to the Eastern Byzantine Catholic Church in the hope of putting these issues to rest, but they have yet to respond.[/quote]

I said this before, but you told me you were definitely become Catholic. Since you're obviously not so self-assured now, I think the best thing is to lay off the intense theological debates. It's not the end of the world if it's a year or two later before you receive the sacraments (although you also said you've been receiving Communion, so I'm not sure what the rush is). I think you need to go out and sing some karaoke... take a break from all this theology over the weekend and enjoy life! It's a sin for the non-cloistered to spend too much time in church.

You see, I sometimes sense myself getting dragged down by despair when I catch myself falling into old patterns of sin, or despairing for the world and all the sin around us, and there was a short time when I was really absorbed into apologetics. But I've always promised myself to remember that the Good News is joyful. All the great martyrs gave up their lives with the same joy that families share celebrating marriages or exchanging gifts at Christmas. Whenever we find ourselves in a place where our Christian faith is being lived out in a way that isn't joyful and brings more pain and despair than it brings fulfillment and hope, we need to find out what is wrong and either crucify it (if it's sin) or get rid of it for a season (if it's a good thing, like theology or apologetics).

So that's my dos centavos on the deal

Edited January 2, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[phatcatholic]

cheryl ... i might be wrong, but you seem to be struggling with the idea that someone can fall from a state of grace, or commit a sin grievous enough to sever one's relationship with God. if that is the case, then i am obliged to tell you that scripture clearly affirms the Catholic position on this. i have compiled a list of scripture passages that pertain to this topic:

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2007/08/falling-from-grace.html"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2007/08/f...from-grace.html[/url]

there is also a debate on my blog where most of the passages in the list are discussed:

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2007/09/rip-to-osas.html"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2007/09/rip-to-osas.html[/url]

it is true: the power of free will to separate us from God is a radical one: but, it is a GIFT given to us by God, so that we can love him with volition, instead of being forced to.

you seem to also be struggling with the fact that eternal damnation can be God's will if he also wills "that all men be saved." the thomists, the molinists, and the augustinians have been debating the best way to reconcile these two statements for years. here's how i understand it, for what it's worth.

God wills that certain men be damned not in the sense of directly sending them there or determining that fate for them irregardless of their works, but in the sense that he has willed a scenario in which men have the ability to choose or refuse Him, and some men refuse him. so, God wills that certain men be damned in the sense that this is a potential consequence in the free-will scenario that he has created.

also, we have to keep in mind that God is the JUST judge, and he determines once and for all eternity what is the just reward for the soul that stands before him. if any soul goes to hell, it's b/c he deserved it. God doesn't send souls to hell just for a little while. there would be no point in that. there's no redemptive value to the suffering that takes place there. it is complete and total separation from God. it is pure misery, forever and ever. it would be sadistic of God to send souls to hell for a little while. "sorry guy, just wanted you to suffer for a while for no good reason or purpose, you can come to heaven now." it would not be empathetic or merciful of God to free souls from hell. it would be an act against his justice, which is perfect, and an act against our free will, which he desires to respect to the bitter end.

i hope that helps.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Ziggamafu]

Nice post, Phat.

I would clarify, however, the following paragraph:

[quote][b]God wills that certain men be damned[/b] not in the sense of directly sending them there or determining that fate for them irregardless of their works, but in the sense that he has willed a scenario in which men have the ability to choose or refuse Him, and some men refuse him. so, [b]God wills that certain men be damned [/b]in the sense that this is a potential consequence in the free-will scenario that he has created.[/quote]

I don't think the bolded expressions do justice to your overarching message. May I suggest: "God freely wills the freedom of Man's will, even if Man wills separation from God"

Insofar as justice is concerned...well, that is largely the reason I hold out hope that all may be saved. If God infinitely loves everyone and wants everyone to spend eternity with him, then it would be an infinite injustice for a single soul to be damned, for the standard of justice is that which God wills. I do not presume salvation for all, which is why I sacrifice so much of my social life for the sake of evangelism. Nevertheless, neither do I despair. I hope, and hope strongly. I cannot fathom Satan "succeeding" in the End, for snatching a single soul from God's loving embrace - from God's will - would seem to be an everlasting success for the Enemy.

Yet another opportunity to plug Balthsar's [i]Dare We Hope That All May Be Saved: With a Short Discourse on Hell[/i]

Perhaps the dilemma is entirely avoided if indeed Heaven and Hell are opposite experiences of the same state of being immersed in the fires of God's love; one group forever trying to escape it, forever having their backs turned, and the other group forever pressing deeper, faces shining towards Glory. I smile at the thought of that kind of justice, and indulge myself in the fantasy of the Tempter and whatever number of souls he might "win" being tormented by God's love for all eternity.

Only timelessness will tell.

In the meantime, Hell must be regarded as a real possibility and a real threat.

[Apotheoun]

With all due respect to Bishop Hilarion, whom I otherwise greatly admire, I believe that he is confusing the netherworld ([i]hades[/i]) with hell ([i]gehenna[/i]). Hades is the abode of the dead, what was called the grave ([i]sheol[/i]) in the Old Testament, where all the dead existed prior to the incarnation of the eternal Logos, while hell ([i]gehenna[/i]) is damnation, i.e., it is the state of being of those who have failed to live a life in conformity with God's will after Christ's salvific work was accomplished; for Christ, through His death and resurrection, destroyed the power of death ([i]hades[/i]) by death, and in the process He gave ever-being to all of mankind and to the whole created universe. In fact, it is only because of the incarnation and the paschal mystery of Christ that heaven (ever-well-being) and hell (ever-ill-being) became possible.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='cheryl' post='1740771' date='Jan 1 2009, 03:53 PM']In conclusion, I don't really want to argue. My heart can't take that right now. But if anyone has any constructive thoughts I'd greatly appreciate them! What do you do with a person that is not fully Roman Catholic and not fully Eastern Orthodox, but a mixture. (If they had a child, I'd be it lol). I am in desperate need of the Sacraments---that's the clincher---that's what makes trying to assent to this or that Church such a priority for me . I've written to the Eastern Byzantine Catholic Church in the hope of putting these issues to rest, but they have yet to respond.[/quote]

when i decided i wanted to find a Christian church to learn about Jesus, i wanted the one that knew the most about Him.. the one that was the most authentic, that held His teachings most in tact from when he spoke them. i didn't care how ugly the Church was, how mean the people were, what they did, how they did it, or what their particular views were, i just wanted the real deal Jesus. i didn't care that my family was Catholic, because i wanted to find the truth, the cold hard truth. i was sick of all the junk on tv and in the world, and knew that people would be competing for my membership. i didn't want anyone to tell me where to go, i wanted to find out objectively for myself.

with that said, i would ignore the doctrines and theology for now. as you said, you don't want to argue. i would focus on Matthew 16:18. it establishes the authority of Peter, and thus apostolic authority. from there you can fast forward to 1054 and the Great Schism which created the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. read both views from both perspectives, then decide which one is right.

Great Schism (just an overview, don't trust wikipedia as final)
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Schism"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Schism[/url]

The Eastern Schism (Catholic Encyclopedia)
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm[/url]

the schism (Eastern perspective)
[url="http://www.google.com"]www.google.com[/url]

it doesn't matter if you agree with it's doctrines or teachings right now. it doesn't even matter if you never do. what matters is you are in the church that Jesus Christ Himself established and is protected by the Holy Spirit forever. after you choose, you can go deeper into the doctrine and theology. you may never fully understand them, but of course you'll still be called to accept them as from Jesus Himself. make that first hurdle, and it will be the rock, the guide, that will lead you through those doctrines because you know they are divine truth.


personally, every single question and issue i have ever asked of the Catholic Church has been adequately answered. the ones i struggled with, i persisted and did not quit until i was satisfied. e.g. i used to think abortion was reasonable in the case of rape. with such a horrible crime, i simply could not fathom why the Church felt the way it did, however i was open. if this is the true Church, it must have some reasonable explanation that is beyond me, and of course over time i was eventually enlightened with Her Truth.

also if you do become Catholic and are attached to the eastern culture, there's the 21 Eastern Catholic Churches.

[Guest]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='1741488' date='Jan 2 2009, 02:28 PM']it would be sadistic of God to send souls to hell for a little while. "sorry guy, just wanted you to suffer for a while for no good reason or purpose, you can come to heaven now." it would not be empathetic or merciful of God to free souls from hell[/quote]


well isnt purgatory a place of great suffering seperated from God ? and it is done to purge the sin out of us ? so wouldnt sending some people to hell for a limited time also accomplish the same thing ? im not saying this is the case but to imply it is sadistic of God to do this wouldnt purgatory be the same case ?

i remember a show on the history channel recently talking about lost books of the bible. and one of them was jesus telling someone that eventually God would allow all humans out of hell. again i dont think this the case or that it will happen but then again who knows, all things are possible with God and he desires all to be saved.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Guest

[frenchfry]

The way that I see it, it's not about finding a church with doctrines that make you feel good - it's about finding one that has the truth, like it or not. When I converted, I went along for a certain amount of time examining one doctrine after another, but after a certain point I realized that I was never going to accept certain teachings on any argument but the authority of the Church. So it came down to, does it or doesn't it have this authority? If it does, you must accept everything as coming from the Holy Spirit. Even if you don't like it - especially if you don't like it. For me, it was a matter of humility and realizing that there may be something out there bigger than my little brain and my little heart who could direct them both. I guess I'm saying that maybe you could approach it as whether authority is in Catholicism or the Eastern church, and pray to have the humility to accept everything from there?

I hope everything works out for you. You're in my prayers.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1744282' date='Jan 6 2009, 03:22 AM']well isnt purgatory a place of great suffering seperated from God ? and it is done to purge the sin out of us ? so wouldnt sending some people to hell for a limited time also accomplish the same thing ? im not saying this is the case but to imply it is sadistic of God to do this wouldnt purgatory be the same case ?

i remember a show on the history channel recently talking about lost books of the bible. and one of them was jesus telling someone that eventually God would allow all humans out of hell. again i dont think this the case or that it will happen but then again who knows, all things are possible with God and he desires all to be saved.[/quote]

While a soul suffers in Purgatory, the soul [i]knows[/i] that he or she will be going to Heaven. The soul suffers but is not without hope because eternal life in Heaven is guaranteed. Hell does not cleanse the soul of sin the way Purgatory does; in Hell the soul knows he or she is eternally damned and despairs that they will never see or feel God. Hell is empty of God and His love.

[[edit.]]

I also want to include that those in Purgatory make up the Church - along with those of us here on Earth and those in Heaven. Hell is completely severed from the Church.

Edited January 6, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Guest]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1744444' date='Jan 6 2009, 02:56 PM']While a soul suffers in Purgatory, the soul [i]knows[/i] that he or she will be going to Heaven. The soul suffers but is not without hope because eternal life in Heaven is guaranteed. Hell does not cleanse the soul of sin the way Purgatory does; in Hell the soul knows he or she is eternally damned and despairs that they will never see or feel God. Hell is empty of God and His love.

[[edit.]]

I also want to include that those in Purgatory make up the Church - along with those of us here on Earth and those in Heaven. Hell is completely severed from the Church.[/quote]


ya good point. i didnt consider that the soul knows they are going to heaven in purgatory. so who is there to torment the soul in purgatory ? it wont be sinners destined for hell right ? they would be in hell ? how does one suffer pain in purgatory ? from past memories and regrets ?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1745017' date='Jan 7 2009, 01:10 AM']ya good point. i didnt consider that the soul knows they are going to heaven in purgatory. so who is there to torment the soul in purgatory ? it wont be sinners destined for hell right ? they would be in hell ? how does one suffer pain in purgatory ? from past memories and regrets ?[/quote]

The souls are not necessarily being tormented but are being cleansed; although yes there is pain that comes with that cleansing because the souls either (a) have sins upon them and/or (b) their sins, while forgiven (via asking for forgiveness/Confession/Last Rites/etc.) have still touched others, perhaps having strong negative consequences, like leading another into sin.

Yes, it would be fair to say that the souls also grieve for offending God.

[Guest]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1745025' date='Jan 7 2009, 02:19 AM']The souls are not necessarily being tormented but are being cleansed; although yes there is (b) their sins, while forgiven (via asking for forgiveness/Confession/Last Rites/etc.) have still touched others, perhaps having strong negative consequences, like leading another into sin.[/quote]


bullseye in my opionon. thats the main reason i believe in purgatory. because it makes perfect sence if you wronged alot of people or led them into sin you have to make that right. it also gives me hope that you can treat people good and not lead them into sin and escape alot of the pain of purgatory.

i think thats why alot of people dont want to believe in purgatory. its so convientent to think we can live this life however ( fornicating with a bunch of different partners, being greedy and dishonest, ect ect) and just ask for forgiveness and stroll right into heaven. thats just to easy, it gives one no incentive to live holy.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1744329' date='Jan 6 2009, 08:19 AM']The way that I see it, it's not about finding a church with doctrines that make you feel good - it's about finding one that has the truth, like it or not. When I converted, I went along for a certain amount of time examining one doctrine after another, but after a certain point I realized that I was never going to accept certain teachings on any argument but the authority of the Church. So it came down to, does it or doesn't it have this authority? If it does, you must accept everything as coming from the Holy Spirit. Even if you don't like it - especially if you don't like it. For me, it was a matter of humility and realizing that there may be something out there bigger than my little brain and my little heart who could direct them both. I guess I'm saying that maybe you could approach it as whether authority is in Catholicism or the Eastern church, and pray to have the humility to accept everything from there?

I hope everything works out for you. You're in my prayers.[/quote]

ya at this critical point in cheryl's journey, she doesn't want to go the protestant route by picking and choosing a church based on what she likes/accepts/understands right now. even in our own church we call em "cafeteria Catholics".

i think we should respect her wishes and focus on her foundational issue before this goes the way of apologetics and just careens off into 50 other topics. she can learn about that stuff in other dedicated threads. her issue now is going left or right, east or west..


i found it interesting that the Orthodox timelines are drawn in a way that the Catholics broke off
[img]http://ocab.netfirms.com/timeline.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.saintignatiuschurch.org/timeline.gif[/img]

and my favorite for protestants
[img]http://choctawridgestudio.com/Church%20Timeline.jpg[/img]