What If The World Didn't Need A Messiah?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739076' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:56 PM']There is no ontological participation in the Divine Nature. It is both impossible and illogical, and I dare say arrogant (perhaps pantheistic) to think this way.[/quote]
I will go with sacred scripture when it says that in Christ we "become partakers of the divine nature." [2 Peter 1:4]

There is nothing pantheistic in the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, for our participation in the divine nature is through the divine energy. Only if one subscribes to the view that the divine essence is the whole of the Godhead, an idea founded upon the pagan philosophy of the Greeks and not upon sacred scripture, would one have to believe that [i]theosis[/i] involves pantheism.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1739111' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:04 PM']I hold that you are wrong and St. Gregory (along with all the Eastern Fathers who teach the same thing) is right.[/quote]
but still have you given consideration to my comments?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739119' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:08 PM']but still have you given consideration to my comments?[/quote]
I have responded to your comments, because I have made it clear that I reject your theology which confuses essence and energy in God.

As St. Gregory pointed out to the heretics Akindynos and Barlaam (who held a position similar to your own): "Essence is necessarily being, but being is not necessarily essence"; in other words, "not everything which is predicated of God is essence." [St. Gregory, [i]Contra Akindynum[/i] II:10, and [i]Capita Physica[/i] 127]

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1739117' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:07 PM']I will go with sacred scripture when it says that in Christ we "become partakers of the divine nature." [2 Peter 1:4]

There is nothing pantheistic in the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, for our participation in the divine nature is through the divine energy. Only if one subscribes to the view that the divine essence is the whole of the Godhead, an idea founded upon the pagan philosophy of the Greeks and not sacred scripture, would one have to believe that [i]theosis[/i] involves pantheism.[/quote]
{1:2} Grace to you. And may peace be fulfilled according to the plan of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord,
{1:3} in the same manner that all things which are for life and piety have been given to us by his Divine virtue, through the plan of him who has called us to our own glory and virtue.
{1:4} Through Christ, he has given us the greatest and most precious promises, so that by these things you may become sharers in the Divine nature, fleeing from the corruption of that desire which is in the world.

~as you well know not every verse of Scripture is literal. In this context the Spirit is teaching us that by grace (referred to above as Divine virtue) we become a "sharer" or "partaker" in the Divine Nature through Christ in the sense that we become holy and beyond concupiscence, and the influences of the world and not in a literal sense that we become Divine as God is. We DO NOT literally become Divine in nature. From an ontological point of view Human nature is holy. God designed us to live in a way that grace would always effect us to be like Him if we would choose and accept this gift of His. This is made more difficult because of the influences of the flesh-world-fallen angels, which we became susceptible after the Fall. Hence the Sacraments.

A soul without the state of grace is like a fish out of water, yet a soul in the state of grace remains a fish in water. A human living in the state of grace does not transcend into a nature beyond itself, much less God himself.

I dont like the terminology of some of the Eastern Fathers. The Church as a whole has advanced in wisdom and understanding since their time.

Edited December 30, 2008 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

Below are the Chapters of the [i]Synodikon of Orthodoxy[/i], which is chanted on the Sunday of Orthodoxy throughout the Christian East, against the heretics Akindynos and Barlaam:


To Barlaam and Akindynos and to their followers and successors,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


To those who at times think and say that the light which shone forth from the Lord at His Divine transfiguration is an apparition, a thing created, and a phantom which appears for an instant and then immediately vanishes, and who at other times think and say that this light is the very essence of God, and thus dementedly cast themselves into entirely contradictory and impossible positions; to such men who, on the one hand, raving with Arios' madness, sever the one Godhead and the one God into created and uncreated, and who, on the other hand, are entangled in the impiety of the Messalians who assert that the Divine essence is visible, and who moreover, do not confess, in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that that supremely Divine light is neither a created thing, nor the essence of God, but is rather uncreated and natural grace, illumination, and energy which everlastingly and inseparably proceeds from the very essence of God,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that God has no natural energy, but is nought but essence, who suppose the Divine essence and the Divine energy to be entirely identical and undistinguishable and with no apprehensible difference between them; who call the same thing at times essence and at times energy, and who senselessly abolish the very essence of God and reduce it to non-being, for, as the teachers of the Church say, "Only non-being is deprived of an energy," to these men who think as did Sabellios, and who dare now to renew his ancient contraction, confusion and coalescing of the three Hypostaseis of the Godhead upon the essence and energy of God by confounding them in an equally impious manner; to these men who do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that in God there is both essence and essential, natural energy, as a great many of the saints, and especially all those who gathered at the Sixth Ecumenical Council, have clearly explained with respect to Christ's two energies, both Divine and human, and His two wills; to those then who in nowise wish to comprehend that, even as there is an unconfused union of God's essence and energy, so is there also an undivided distinction between them, for, among other things, essence is cause while energy is effect, essence suffers no participation, while energy is communicable; to those, therefore, who profess such impieties,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is created, and thereby are constrained to believe that the very essence of God is also created, since, according to the saints, created energy evidences a created nature, whereas uncreated energy designates an uncreated nature; to these men who, in consequence, are in danger now of falling into complete atheism, who have affixed the mythology of the Greeks and the worship of creatures to the pure and spotless faith of the Christians and who do not confess, in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is uncreated,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that through these pious doctrines a compounding comes to pass in God, for they do not comply with the teaching of the saints, that no compounding occurs in a nature from its natural properties; to such men who thereby lay false accusation not only against us, but against all the saints who, at great length and on many occasions, have most lucidly restated both the doctrine of God's simplicity and uncompoundedness and the distinction of the Divine essence and energy, in such a manner so that this distinction in no way destroys the Divine simplicity, for otherwise, they would contradict their own teaching; to such, therefore, as speak these empty words and do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that the Divine simplicity is most excellently preserved in this God-befitting distinction,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that the name 'Godhead' or 'Divinity' can be applied only to the essence of God, but who do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that this appellation equally pertains to the Divine energy, and that thus one Godhead: of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is by all means still professed, whether one apply the name 'Godhead' to Their essence, or to Their energy, as the divine expounders of the mysteries have instructed us,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that the essence of God is communicable, and who thus without shame strive to subtly introduce into our Church the impiety of the Messalians, who of old suffered from the malady of this same opinion, and who thus do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that the essence of God is wholly inapprehensible and incommunicable, whereas the grace and energy of God are communicable,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


To all the impious words and writings of these men,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


To Isaac, surnamed Argyros, who suffered throughout his life with the malady of Barlaam and Akindynos, and though at the end of his life the Church asked, as formerly she had often done, for his return and repentance, he nevertheless remained obdurate in his impiety and in the profession of his heresy, and wretchedly vomited forth his soul,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739127' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:26 PM']I dont like the terminology of some of the Eastern Fathers. The Church as a whole has advanced in wisdom and understanding since their time.[/quote]
That you do not like the "terminology" of the Eastern Fathers is irrelevant. Just as your opinion that the Church has "advanced" in wisdom and understanding is irrelevant. I accept the faith that was delivered once for all to the saints (Jude 1:3). The faith is one and immutable.

I confess, with St. Basil the Great, that: ". . . there is a distinction between the essence ([i]ousia[/i]) and each one of the attributes enumerated. The energies ([i]energeiai[/i]) are various, and the essence ([i]ousia[/i]) simple, but we say that we know our God from His energies ([i]energeiai[/i]), but do not undertake to approach near to His essence ([i]ousia[/i]). His energies ([i]energeiai[/i]) come down to us, but His essence ([i]ousia[/i]) remains beyond our reach." [St. Basil, [i]Letter[/i] 234]

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

{1:2} Grace to you. And may peace be fulfilled according to the plan of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord,
{1:3} in the same manner that all things which are for life and piety have been given to us by his Divine virtue, through the plan of him who has called us to our own glory and virtue.
{1:4} Through Christ, he has given us the greatest and most precious promises, so that by these things you may become sharers in the Divine nature, fleeing from the corruption of that desire which is in the world.

~as you well know not every verse of Scripture is literal. In this context the Spirit is teaching us that by grace (referred to above as Divine virtue) we become a "sharer" or "partaker" in the Divine Nature through Christ in the sense that we become holy and beyond concupiscence, and the influences of the world and not in a literal sense that we become Divine as God is. We DO NOT literally become Divine in nature. From an ontological point of view Human nature is holy. God designed us to live in a way that grace would always effect us to be like Him if we would choose and accept this gift of His. This is made more difficult because of the influences of the flesh-world-fallen angels, which we became susceptible after the Fall. Hence the Sacraments.

A soul without the state of grace is like a fish out of water, yet a soul in the state of grace remains a fish in water. A human living in the state of grace does not transcend into a nature beyond itself, much less God himself.

I dont like the terminology of some of the Eastern Fathers. The Church as a whole has advanced in wisdom and understanding since their time.


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1739130' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:32 PM']That you do not like the "terminology" of the Eastern Fathers is irrelevant. Just as your opinion that the Church has "advanced" in wisdom and understanding is irrelevant. I accept the faith that was delivered once for all to the saints (Jude 1:3). The faith is one and immutable.[/quote]
No it is relevant. The Faith does not depend upon theological terms.

The Faith is one and immutable yet it is dark and deep. It is deeper than the ocean, and more mysterious than a dense forest. One could spend everyday of ones life meditating upon Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium, and always learn something new. All men of all times put together will never completely fathom the truths of the Faith. Even the BVM cannot completely fathom Christ and the Church. She might not even be able to fathom her own mystery.

The Church grows in wisdom and understanding and grace and strength just as Christ did in his Human nature.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739132' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:42 PM']No it is relevant. The Faith does not depend upon theological terms.[/quote]
No, your views on this are not relevant, because the Magisterium cannot alter the biblical terms used in divine revelation, and energy (energeia) is a biblical term.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

The Song of Songs
{1:8}O daughters of Jerusalem: I am black, but shapely, like the tabernacles of Kedar, like the tents of Solomon.
{1:9} Do not be concerned that I am dark, for the sun has changed my color.
{1:10} The sons of my mother have fought against me. They have made me the keeper of the vineyards. My own vineyard I have not kept.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739085' date='Dec 30 2008, 05:08 PM']I am trying to be as exact as possible since there are many errors in the Church during these times we live in.[/quote]

The Church is infallible.

[kafka]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1739137' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:46 PM']The Church is infallible.[/quote]
The Magisterium is infallible when it teaches under certain conditions.

I meant among the faithful and in the world there are many errors being taught among Catholic priests, theologians, scholars, laity, and media.

You're fishing.

Edited December 30, 2008 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

Energy is a biblical term, an example of its use can be seen in Philippians (2:13):

"For it is God who energizes (ενεργών) in you both to will and to energize (ενεργείν) for His good pleasure."

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

{2:13} Deus est enim, qui operatur in vobis et velle, et perficere pro bona voluntate.

{2:13} For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

{2:13} For it is God who works in you, both so as to choose, and so as to act, in accord with his good will.


~ Here the Spirit is teaching us that the grace of God moves us, or better effects us before, during, and after all the good works we have/shall accomplish according to His will. The grace of Jesus Christ is before, during, and after all good intentions/acts/consequences, namely all the moral acts of us!

Apotheoun perhaps, Divine energy as used by the Eastern Fathers is another phrase for

sanctifying grace

terms are not truths in themselves, they merely point or show the way to Truth.

Edited December 31, 2008 by kafka

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739046' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:50 PM']As Frenchfry pointed out His Divine Nature is eternal, his human nature had a beginning. Still you sort of make a point. The Divine and Human Natures are mystically united, therefore Jesus Christ is in a way beyond time and place:[/quote]

Hmm... I'd like to find that in the Catechism or some authoritative document. No offense to Frenchfry... even if he was Fr. Frenchfry, I'd want to get it from the source... I might trust Cardinal Frenchfry A lot of heresies are rooted in very subtle misunderstandings about the nature of God, so regardless of which one it is, we should all make sure we get it right.

I probably should be more specific: We agree Jesus' human [i]flesh[/i] had a beginning in time and space, but how do we know that his human [i]nature[/i] was not pre-existing? Are Adam and Eve not a testimony to the eternal human nature of Christ, because Scripture says "in the image of God he created them?" Seems like the reason Scripture makes this testimony is because they shared the human nature of the Son of God.

[Apotheoun]

The Logos assumed human nature from the Theotokos at a particular moment in time, which means that Christ's human nature is not in itself eternal, nor does it pre-exist its assumption by the Logos. Nevertheless, one can speak of the human nature assumed by the Logos as taking on eternity, because it is actualized by the eternal act of being of the Logos and so it is permeated with divine energy.