Aloysius Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1736748' date='Dec 28 2008, 04:14 AM'][indent] Second, I am not the one who made this 'puzzle' regarding God needs another self which is not himself but also himself in order to prove and show his love to himself. I think it is better you solve it yourself because I am not the one who believe in this doctrine. (joke only )[/quote] hehehe funny; except the puzzle is the Bible and the solution is the doctrine of the Trinity... so only those who do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity need to seek a solution to the puzzle... Trinitarians have their solution: the Trinity; non trinitarians are left with a logical inconsistency which either is solved by saying the Bible is wrong about God or by accepting the Trinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1736751' date='Dec 28 2008, 04:30 AM']hehehe funny; except the puzzle is the Bible and the solution is the doctrine of the Trinity... so only those who do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity need to seek a solution to the puzzle... Trinitarians have their solution: the Trinity; non trinitarians are left with a logical inconsistency which either is solved by saying the Bible is wrong about God or by accepting the Trinity[/quote] [indent]They say that the Holy Trinity is the utmost message of the scripture. I agree with it if we are talking about 'interpretation' or 'rendition' to the Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. They also say the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the revelation of God, as Himself to man but the problem with this 'revelation', at the end of the day this 'revelation' is still a 'mystery' in itself. Therefore, what revelation do they get out of it? Is it not in circle like a battle of greateness between the head and the toe? Go to the center of that universe - in Christ, there is our solution. Christ is the mystery of God. He is the message of all these books in the Bible because all of these witnesses are referring to Him. Although, only God can reveal Him to you but still, if you will seek Him you will find Him. It is a promise made by Christ himself to us. [/indent] Edited December 28, 2008 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1736750' date='Dec 28 2008, 04:28 AM']:-) I didn't make the riddle, it's a necessary conclusion of those biblical facts: 1, God is love, 2. Love is selfless (it is not self seeking), 3. God existed before and outside the creation of anything else. God cannot BE love if He has nothing to love. but He IS love, it is His nature. if there is a time when He was not love, He would not have been God, and then God wouldn't have been there before the beginning to create everything in the beginning. God would have changed to become love when there was something to love, for love cannot exist unless it loves something (not itself, as true love is not self seeking according to St. Paul); and of course, God changing would contradict the scriptures: Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I change not" and of course, the only other figure to be said to never change is Jesus: Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever this is not a riddle I have fashioned, but a riddle the biblical facts themselves create... if God is love, He must love; if love is selfless, he must love something other than Him; if He is eternal, He must love something eternal; but only God is eternal, and God does not change... and Jesus Christ is eternal and Jesus Christ does not change... and Jesus Christ said He spoke only that which He heard from His Father through the Holy Ghost, and Jesus Christ commanded baptism in the name of the Trinity; and all these things point to a conclusion to the riddle created by the Biblical facts... the only way it works is if God eternally loves an eternal other who is both not Him (not the Father) and is God; and Christ revealed that there is a third person through which this eternal love goes who is also God and not the Son and not the Father so that the three can selflessly love each other.[/quote] [indent][post="1735844"]We have previous discussion about this issue. Please read this link .[/post][/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1736710' date='Dec 27 2008, 11:50 PM'][indent]Where did I get the idea? (That the doctrine of Holy Trinity is not from God?) As I have already said ‘[post="1730124"]By God’s Grace – I saw it[/post].’ I mean the truth, and I also said that ‘[post="1729770"]the spirit of Christ guides me’[/post]. Now, whether you believe me or not is immaterial to me. I am just informing you and the rest is for your own judgment - whether you will seek the truth or you will remain where you are. My concern is just to tell you because I do not like to leave this world with guilt of being too coward and dumb. [/indent][/quote] and yet, how did you conclude it was Christ and His spirit? Are you your own authority? Seeking the truth using your own judgment, not even the saints did; yet we have so many who claim it and when it's time to debate really don't have any other real authority but themselves. Truth is objective. People and their "truths"; are subjective. The fact is; I have thousands of years of authority of the Catholic Church. You only have the authority of less than a life span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) [quote name='jmjtina' post='1736762' date='Dec 28 2008, 05:33 AM']and yet, how did you conclude it was Christ and His spirit? Are you your own authority? Seeking the truth using your own judgment, not even the saints did; yet we have so many who claim it and when it's time to debate really don't have any other real authority but themselves. Truth is objective. People and their "truths"; are subjective. The fact is; I have thousands of years of authority of the Catholic Church. You only have the authority of less than a life span.[/quote] [indent]I know how established the Roman Catholic Church and Protestant Churches, meaning the entire Christianity, including Buddhist and Islam. I am aware of this reality and I know very well…who will believe me? But if you are in my position I do not think you can ignore the power of this coming. To tell you frankly, I am running away from this. I am not lying to you. Please do not insult me; I really tried my best to forget it for almost 14 years now. I always close my eyes and let everything fall into place without me. I said to myself, ‘everyone who holds the scripture has the testimony of witnesses therefore; my presence is not needed anymore. Let them read it themselves’. But still I am here and I am just a neophyte. Please, let me do my witnessing some other time.[/indent] Edited December 28, 2008 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) .......... Edited December 28, 2008 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1736760' date='Dec 28 2008, 05:29 AM'][indent][post="1735844"]We have previous discussion about this issue. Please read this link .[/post][/indent][/quote] ARRRRGH!!! WHAT [i]discussion[/i]????! You didn't even give a simple honest answer! This entire thread is pointless precisely because you refuse to engage in an honest conversation! I have never ever seen such high & lofty levels of obfuscation! Such convoluted ramblings! The whole thing must be some sick joke! Are you actually Sacha Baron Cohen? Is this for an upcoming movie??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses' Alt Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 For some reason Reyb's conduct is reminding me ALOT of that parliamentary tactic known as a Filibuster. Or Obstructionism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1736541' date='Dec 27 2008, 08:07 PM']Your lips is too loose to judge me having bad logic. Are you sure I do not know what you mean? The word 'trinity' itself is not the weight of my inquiry but its essence - that is our subject of discussion. I do not care whether you call it trinity or triune God, it is the same. But prove to me that Prophets and Apostle Paul believe on your three- in- One God. And that's it. Don't you know that even these hypocrite teachers of Jews believe that the Son of God is God himself? (Just like your accepted belief). Now, if you want to remain there and do not want to seek for the truth - that is not my problem. Okay?[/quote] Dude, I'm not wasting any more time trying to engage you in discussion. I know there isn't any amount of "proof" that will convince someone like you whose mind is already made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 Why does god have to be trinity to be love? That's supposing somehow god is defined by his being (3 persons) rather than his essence. I could easily say god is love and yet it's a mystery and something our fallible, limited minds will never comprehend. Or that god one person and is love and his love is for his creation and he desires to be loved by his creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 i think the title of this thread is blasphemous...can't one of the moderators change it? and reyb, the only "doctrine" i see scantily explained throughout this thread is your very own personal thoughts on God...your very own "doctrine"... ...and so, by the title of this thread, am I to believe you are calling yourself the devil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 i apologize that I just jumped in without reading anything of previous discussion the reason this is different than self-seeking love is because the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, the Spirit is not the Son and the Son is not the Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father and the Father is not the Spirit; therefore, the the meaning of "mystery" is NOT that it cannot be known, but that it can be infinitely known and as finite beings we will never fully grasp it... but we can continue to go deeper and deeper into the mystery. Sherlock Holmes doesn't say "oh it's a mystery, I'll just accept that's what it is"; he investigates and learns... but he is dealing with finite mysteries (crimes); with an infinite mystery there is unlimited investigating and there is never an "elementary, dear watson" moment, because you never fully know it, you just keep knowing more and more and more. love is not selfish; God is not dependant upon creation; therefore, there is no explanation that makes any sense except a communion within God wherein each member is eternal and God (and therefore His nature is not dependant upon creation but self sustaining) but each member is not each other member so that the love is not self serving. when God the Father loves God the Son, He is not loving "Himself", He is loving the Son. the traditional explanation of the Trinity: [img]http://www.lutheransonline.com/lo/930/FSLO-1142772930-111930.JPG[/img] along the lines of "is not" you can replace it with "loves" and see that this is not self seeking love and thus is true love. again, not a mystery that cannot be known, but a mystery that can be infinitely explored and never fully known (not even a proper fraction of it, because infinity can't be a denominator); just saying "God remains love somehow that is a mystery" does NOT fit the Christian definition of a mystery of God, as a mystery is not a roadblock that says "do not look behind this,this is just how it is and we don't know how or why nor could we begin to know how or why"; a mystery is something so vast and infinite that it's like "you can learn more and more about it forever and ever and still not fully know" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1736772' date='Dec 28 2008, 03:10 PM']For some reason Reyb's conduct is reminding me ALOT of that parliamentary tactic known as a Filibuster. Or Obstructionism.[/quote] Good old McEvoy has taught you well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses' Alt Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 In his own, dear, cynical and sarcastic manner. =) And btw he said Hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 He's a good soul (even if he doesn't want to admit it!) Did you find out if he still has the red jumper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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