Holy Trinity - The Devil's Doctrine

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1739169' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:53 PM']I am no Church scholar, but I will try to explain this, and I ask that if I am incorrect, for a more knowledgeable individual to please correct me.

The very first line of Genesis reads "In the beginning God created heaven, and earth." [For clarification I am using the Douay-Rheims.] The second line begins to explain what the earth was like, and the earth, as you well know, was "void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; [b] and the spirit of God moved over the waters[/b]." (1:2). I emphasized this because perhaps "the spirit of God" was the Holy Spirit? Again, a Church Scholar is welcome to step in on my assumption. God created light [i]on earth[/i]. Light, or "light" - using "light" as God's good presence - is what Heaven is. That kind of "light" is Heaven. When God says "be light made" in 1:3 He is adding to the world. Remember, the key thing to know here is that [b]"Light" already exists in Heaven because Heaven is "light". The earth, however, needs light - the physical sun.[/b][/quote]


Kind of funny that 5,000 years of Jewish scholarship, of the actual Hebrew mind you, never broached upon your interpretation huh?

[Hassan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738529' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:47 AM']Congratulations, reyb, this is exactly why light is a METAPHOR for Christ. The light is NOT Christ. Light is part of creation; the first part of creation in this particular narrative. Notice the sun is not created until the fourth day.

Suppose the Words of God, "Let there be light," "Let there be a firmament," "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together," etc. are the Second Person of the Trinity. Light did not exist until the Word of God brought it into existence, but the Word of God always existed because God always existed without beginning or end.

"All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." -John 1:3[/quote]


This reminds me of Muslim writters who try to twist out of the Old Testament some fortelling of the comming of Muhammad. They have as much right to their interpretation as you do yours and I think both are a bit silly. Both ravage the Jewish scriptures to derive a conclusion that is obviously not organic to the text or the Jewish understanding of their sacred text. I mean you can impose Christian themes on a Jewish text, but ultimatly these are in no way revelatory, but simply reflection of yourimposition.

[Hassan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739249' date='Dec 30 2008, 11:51 PM'][indent]I do not accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity but I do believe in God. I always say there is no historical Jesus but it does not mean there is no Jesus Christ at all. What I am saying is this ...historical Jesus is just an interpretation of a reader to the scripure but it is not a historical reality. These writers (of the scriptures) are not referring to this historical Jesus, they are referring to another Jesus different from your historical Jesus.

Okay, I will read what you have posted and I will give my views about it. TY.
[/indent][/quote]

There is no historical Jesus but that does not mean there is no Jesus the Christ? Well you obviously believe Jesus is not divine, so what was he? Not a prophet as only men are prophets in the Semetic tradition, not an angle as there is nothing ontologically unique from one angle to another, nothing to merit being "the Christ", so what was he?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1739440' date='Dec 31 2008, 05:12 AM']You are arguing from nuances in the translation of a language not even in the same family of the language we are using here. The early Hebrews were henotheists, not trinitarian monotheists. I think you would be hard pressed to find a single Rabbi who accecpted your rather uniwue interpretation here, nor should they.[/quote]

Shema Yisra'el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad! Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Some of the early Hebrews were henotheists, as well as pagans, they did worship the golden calf. Yet that does not make the modern school of thought that the Torah or any Old Testament Book allows for Henotheism a correct view, or in sync with traditional Hebrew or Christian belief. Continually through out the Torah other gods are defined as idols, or false gods. Traditional Orthodox Jewish thought believes that Moses divinely inspired wrote the Torah and taught that there is but one God. The Rabbis at the time of Christ and before would have thought same.

Again the thought that Henotheism is taught in the Torah or The Old Testament is a somewhat modern naturalistic school of thought which relays on weak interpretations of the Old Testament.

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1739168' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:49 PM']Filibusting... So...much...Filibusting....[/quote]
[indent]
Correction please....

[/indent]
[quote name='reyb' post='1739218' date='Dec 30 2008, 11:20 PM'][indent]filibuster
fil•i•bus•ter [fílli bùst?r] noun (plural fil•i•bus•ters)
1. POLITICS political delaying tactic: a tactic such as a long irrelevant speech or several such speeches used to delay or prevent the passage of legislation
2. POLITICS legislative obstructor: somebody who uses obstructive tactics to prevent the passage of legislation
3. MILITARY military adventurer: somebody who is a mercenary or irregular in a revolutionary army of a foreign country

[color="#0000FF"][b]I am[/b] not the one who holds you back. And, I want you to consider my inquiry. Time will come, you will and must answer all of these 'claims and deeds' in the court of God and it is better for us to hear it now since we still have time before our battle begins in heavens.
[/color]
It is written, [color="#FF0000"]‘Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. [/color](2 Cor 12:19-21).[/indent][/quote]

[Guest Jon]

[color="#000080"]
There is alot to read here, but I haven't found where anyone has brought up Gen 1:26 KJV,

[i]Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...[/i]


I have heard it twice explained that that was indeed referring to the Trinity of God's Being, His very nature. I would love further comments on that - I'm no scholar and find this thread interesting.

Thanks,
Jon[/color]

Edited December 31, 2008 by Jon

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1738738' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:57 AM']But Reyb - what you think when Scripture the says here!!! that we can know that the troops "stumble:"

Nahum 2:5 He summons his picked troops,
yet they stumble on their way.

and in "Light" of this, why God says that he has signet ring hmmm??? (Haggai 2:23)

Now you see how I bring the entire threads together into one theme in these critical God's Words. I know you can see it.[/quote]

Now! You see that "Light" is not God's signet ring I know you know, see scriptures. But addressing my post there is still the troops?

[i][color="#00FFFF"]Ezekiel 32:12 I will cause your hordes to fall
by the swords of mighty men—
the most ruthless of all nations.
They will shatter the pride of Egypt,
and all her hordes will be overthrown.[/color][/i]

AND?(!!!)
[i]
[color="#00FF00"]Nehemiah 12:31
I had the leaders of Judah go up on top of the wall. I also assigned two large choirs to give thanks. One was to proceed on top of the wall to the right, toward the Dung Gate[/color].[/i]

What is this Dung Gate?

I know you can see.

[Ziggamafu]

[color="#FF00FF"]2 Kings 25:22 Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon appointed Gedaliah son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, to be over the people he had left behind in Judah. 23 When all the army officers and their men heard that the king of Babylon had appointed Gedaliah as governor, they came to Gedaliah at Mizpah—Ishmael son of Nethaniah, Johanan son of Kareah, Seraiah son of Tanhumeth the Netophathite, Jaazaniah the son of the Maacathite, and their men.[/color]

I am believing the passages speaks for itself.

I know you can see.

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1739466' date='Dec 31 2008, 07:58 AM']Now! You see that "Light" is not God's signet ring I know you know, see scriptures. But addressing my post there is still the troops?

[i][color="#00FFFF"]Ezekiel 32:12 I will cause your hordes to fall
by the swords of mighty men—
the most ruthless of all nations.
They will shatter the pride of Egypt,
and all her hordes will be overthrown.[/color][/i]

AND?(!!!)
[i]
[color="#00FF00"]Nehemiah 12:31
I had the leaders of Judah go up on top of the wall. I also assigned two large choirs to give thanks. One was to proceed on top of the wall to the right, toward the Dung Gate[/color].[/i]

What is this Dung Gate?

I know you can see.[/quote]


[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1739467' date='Dec 31 2008, 08:02 AM'][color="#FF00FF"]2 Kings 25:22 Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon appointed Gedaliah son of Ahikam, the son of Shaphan, to be over the people he had left behind in Judah. 23 When all the army officers and their men heard that the king of Babylon had appointed Gedaliah as governor, they came to Gedaliah at Mizpah—Ishmael son of Nethaniah, Johanan son of Kareah, Seraiah son of Tanhumeth the Netophathite, Jaazaniah the son of the Maacathite, and their men.[/color]

I am believing the passages speaks for itself.

I know you can see.[/quote]

[indent] Yes I am blind. I cannot see...maybe because of the color and the message with this color or the color and message blinded me. Whatever. In your multiple choices, I cannot choose. Now, when you send messages I cannot read it. I am totally defeated. [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1739169' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:53 PM']I am no Church scholar, but I will try to explain this, and I ask that if I am incorrect, for a more knowledgeable individual to please correct me.

The very first line of Genesis reads "In the beginning God created heaven, and earth." [For clarification I am using the Douay-Rheims.] [color="#0000FF"]The second line begins to explain what the earth was like, and the earth, as you well know, was "void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; [b] and the spirit of God moved over the waters[/b]." (1:2). I emphasized this because perhaps "the spirit of God" was the Holy Spirit? Again, a Church Scholar is welcome to step in on my assumption. God created light [i]on earth[/i]. Light, or "light" - using "light" as God's good presence - is what Heaven is. That kind of "light" is Heaven. When God says "be light made" in 1:3 He is adding to the world. Remember, the key thing to know here is that [b]"Light" already exists in Heaven because Heaven is "light[/color]". The earth, however, needs light - the physical sun.[/b][/quote]

[indent]Let me clarify what you are trying to tell us. You are saying that the light in second sentence means ‘The Presence of the Goodness of God’, meaning when God said ‘Let there be light’. God is actually saying ‘Let the presence of the Heavenly Goodness exist’. Is this what you are telling us?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1739300' date='Dec 30 2008, 11:19 PM']Light. The sun was made on the fourth day, and placed in the firmament to distinguish the seasons, &c.; [color="#0000FF"]but the particles of fire were created on the first day, and by their, or the earth's motion, served to discriminate day from the preceding night, or darkness, which was upon the face of the deep. [/color](Haydock) --- Perhaps this body of light might resemble the bright cloud which accompanied the Israelites, Exodus xiv. 19, or the three first days might have a kind of imperfect sun, or be like one of our cloudy days. Nothing can be defined with certainty respecting the nature of this primeval light. (Calmet)

Two great lights. God created on the first day light, which being moved from east to west, by its rising and setting made morning and evening. But on the fourth day he ordered and distributed this light, and made the sun, moon, and stars. The moon, though much less than the stars, is here called a great light, from its giving a far greater light to earth than any of them. (Challoner)

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id327.html"]source[/url][/quote]

[indent]The 'light' in the second sentence of Genesis is now the 'particles of fire'? [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1739440' date='Dec 31 2008, 04:12 AM']You are arguing from nuances in the translation of a language not even in the same family of the language we are using here. The early Hebrews were henotheists, not trinitarian monotheists. I think you would be hard pressed to find a single Rabbi who accecpted your rather uniwue interpretation here, nor should they.[/quote]
[indent]

Gen 1:26
[color="#FF0000"]26 Then God said, "Let [b]us [/b]make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."[/color]NIV

henotheism
hen•o•the•ism [hénnə thee ìzzəm] noun
worship of one god among several: the worship of one god, for example, as the special god of a social group or occupation, while acknowledging or believing in the existence of other gods

You said Hebrews are henotheists. They worship one God among many. How do they interpret the word ‘us’ in that verse? Trinitarians said that ‘us’ is the Holy Trinity. [/indent]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739472' date='Dec 31 2008, 09:26 AM'][indent]The 'light' in the second sentence of Genesis is now the 'particles of fire'? [/indent][/quote]

A created light source.

[reyb]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1739491' date='Dec 31 2008, 09:19 AM']A created light source.[/quote]
[indent]So, do you mean when God said 'let there be light'. This particle or particles of fires were created in the entire universe -which in turn it is the 'source' of the birth of the universe. Is this what you mean?[/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Jon' post='1739465' date='Dec 31 2008, 08:54 AM'][color="#000080"]
There is alot to read here, but I haven't found where anyone has brought up Gen 1:26 KJV,[/quote]

Actually, there isn't anything to read here. Reading Dan Brown is less a waste of time than these threads.