Holy Trinity - The Devil's Doctrine

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738930' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:33 PM'][color="#0000FF"]Before light, God the Father, Son (who is light), and Holy Spirit simply existed[/color].....?

If that is the case, why then God said 'let there be light' if that 'light' is already present?

This is our verse...

Gen 1:3-4

3 [color="#FF0000"]And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. [/color]NIV[/quote]

As I said before, the Son IS NOT LIGHT. The Son is the Word of God. There was a time when light did not exist. So allow me to correct your statement above (I'll even put in blue for you). It should read:

[color="#0000FF"]Before light, God the Father, Son (who is God's Word), and Holy Spirit simply existed.[/color]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738930' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:33 PM']My question is, before He said 'Let there be light', is that light already present or not?[/quote]

The light was NOT present until God created it.

[quote name='reyb' post='1738930' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:33 PM']Why then the next statement 'and there was light'?[/quote]

Because that is the moment when God created light through his Word.

[color="#FF0000"]Now, who is the Word of God?[/color]

You need to give me an answer to this question before we continue discussing this topic.

Edited December 30, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Guest Jon]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1738976' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:44 PM']Winchester said this because his post was a challenged directed at Reyb, and if you have been following his posts, you would not be surprised that he would've been so ired to have made such a cutting statement when someone else responded to his challenge.

If you're worried about the feelings of others, maybe you should've proof read your post before submitting it when you said "I had been following your posts, Winchester with smiles" As potentially this sentence could be interpreted instead of you enjoying his posts that you were 'smiling knowingly' I'm all for being tactful in your words, but be careful yourself when you post such ambiguous statements.[/quote]

[color="#000080"]Well, worry is not in my vocabulary, just as an aside.
Yes, [i]smiling [/i]is pretty ambiguous - let me clarify - smiling=happy, enjoying - to me. Sorry for any misunderstanding. :)

Thanks,
Jon[/color]

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738980' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:53 PM']As I said before, the Son IS NOT LIGHT. The Son is the Word of God. There was a time when light did not exist. So allow me to correct your statement above (I'll even put in blue for you). It should read:

[color="#0000FF"]Before light, God the Father, Son (who is God's Word), and Holy Spirit simply existed.[/color]



[color="#0000FF"]The light was NOT present until God created it.



Because that is the moment when God created light through his Word.

[color="#FF0000"]Now, who is the Word of God?[/color]

You need to give me an answer to this question before we continue discussing this topic.[/color][/quote]

[indent]Who is the Word of God? God Himsef. But who is that God in the dark who said 'Let there be light'? How can that 'word' be said without someone saying it and that 'Light' was created? [/indent]

[Giolla]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739107' date='Dec 30 2008, 07:00 PM'][indent]Who is the Word of God? God Himsef. But who is that God in the dark who said 'Let there be light'? How can that 'word' be said without someone saying it and that 'Light' was created? [/indent][/quote]
'
God was before the light and he will be there when the world is no more. Nobody was around when the light was created but it was revealed to Abraham by God.

[reyb]

[quote name='Giolla' post='1739140' date='Dec 30 2008, 07:51 PM']'
God was before the light and he will be there when the world is no more. Nobody was around when the light was created but it was revealed to Abraham by God.[/quote]

[indent]God said ‘Let there be light’….
Before that ‘Word’ was said, there is no light. And before that ‘Light’ was created, the Spirit of God is hovering over the waters from where the earth was formless and empty and darkness was over the surface of the deep.

Now, since you confess you know the Truth, I asked, ‘Who is that God, who said ‘Let there be Light’? Please do not answer me ‘You do not know’ because you said ‘You know the Truth’,[/indent]

[Giolla]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739151' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:19 PM'][indent]God said ‘Let there be light’….
Before that ‘Word’ was said, there is no light. And before that ‘Light’ was created, the Spirit of God is hovering over the waters from where the earth was formless and empty and darkness was over the surface of the deep.

Now, since you confess you know the Truth, I asked, ‘Who is that God, who said ‘Let there be Light’? Please do not answer me ‘You do not know’ because you said ‘You know the Truth’,[/indent][/quote]

Explain to me what you mean by "who is that God". God is God. there are no others. Whats your point with all this anyway just trying to test people's faith? Because no offense but that a little lame.

[Galloglasses' Alt]

Filibusting... So...much...Filibusting....

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739107' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:00 PM'][indent]Who is the Word of God? God Himsef. But who is that God in the dark who said 'Let there be light'? How can that 'word' be said without someone saying it and that 'Light' was created? [/indent][/quote]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739151' date='Dec 30 2008, 07:19 PM'][indent]God said ‘Let there be light’….
Before that ‘Word’ was said, there is no light. And before that ‘Light’ was created, the Spirit of God is hovering over the waters from where the earth was formless and empty and darkness was over the surface of the deep.

Now, since you confess you know the Truth, I asked, ‘Who is that God, who said ‘Let there be Light’? Please do not answer me ‘You do not know’ because you said ‘You know the Truth’,[/indent][/quote]

I am no Church scholar, but I will try to explain this, and I ask that if I am incorrect, for a more knowledgeable individual to please correct me.

The very first line of Genesis reads "In the beginning God created heaven, and earth." [For clarification I am using the Douay-Rheims.] The second line begins to explain what the earth was like, and the earth, as you well know, was "void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; [b] and the spirit of God moved over the waters[/b]." (1:2). I emphasized this because perhaps "the spirit of God" was the Holy Spirit? Again, a Church Scholar is welcome to step in on my assumption. God created light [i]on earth[/i]. Light, or "light" - using "light" as God's good presence - is what Heaven is. That kind of "light" is Heaven. When God says "be light made" in 1:3 He is adding to the world. Remember, the key thing to know here is that [b]"Light" already exists in Heaven because Heaven is "light". The earth, however, needs light - the physical sun.[/b]

Edited December 31, 2008 by HisChildForever

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1739168' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:49 PM']Filibusting... So...much...Filibusting....[/quote]

[indent]filibuster
fil•i•bus•ter [fílli bùstər] noun (plural fil•i•bus•ters)
1. POLITICS political delaying tactic: a tactic such as a long irrelevant speech or several such speeches used to delay or prevent the passage of legislation
2. POLITICS legislative obstructor: somebody who uses obstructive tactics to prevent the passage of legislation
3. MILITARY military adventurer: somebody who is a mercenary or irregular in a revolutionary army of a foreign country

If not the one who hold you back. And, I want you to consider my inquiry since a time will come when you must answer all of these 'claims and deeds' in the court of God and it is better for us to hear it now since we still have time before our battle begins in heavens.

It is written, [color="#FF0000"]‘Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. [/color](2 Cor 12:19-21).[/indent]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739218' date='Dec 30 2008, 10:20 PM'][indent]filibuster
fil•i•bus•ter [fílli bùstər] noun (plural fil•i•bus•ters)
1. POLITICS political delaying tactic: a tactic such as a long irrelevant speech or several such speeches used to delay or prevent the passage of legislation
2. POLITICS legislative obstructor: somebody who uses obstructive tactics to prevent the passage of legislation
3. MILITARY military adventurer: somebody who is a mercenary or irregular in a revolutionary army of a foreign country

If not the one who hold you back. And, I want you to consider my inquiry since a time will come when you must answer all of these 'claims and deeds' in the court of God and it is better for us to hear it now since we still have time before our battle begins in heavens.

It is written, [color="#FF0000"]‘Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged. [/color](2 Cor 12:19-21).[/indent][/quote]

Are you going to acknowledge what I posted?

And I find it a little odd that you are throwing Scripture into someone's face when you don't even believe in God.

Edited December 31, 2008 by HisChildForever

[reyb]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1739235' date='Dec 30 2008, 11:38 PM']Are you going to acknowledge what I posted?

And I find it a little odd that you are throwing Scripture into someone's face when you don't even believe in God.[/quote]

[indent]I do not accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity but I do believe in God. I always say there is no historical Jesus but it does not mean there is no Jesus Christ at all. What I am saying is this ...historical Jesus is just an interpretation of a reader to the scripure but it is not a historical reality. These writers (of the scriptures) are not referring to this historical Jesus, they are referring to another Jesus different from your historical Jesus.

Okay, I will read what you have posted and I will give my views about it. TY.
[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Giolla' post='1739160' date='Dec 30 2008, 08:12 PM']Explain to me what you mean by "who is that God". God is God. there are no others. Whats your point with all this anyway just trying to test people's faith? Because no offense but that a little lame.[/quote]

[indent]Okay let me post again our subject verse.

Gen 1:1-5
[color="#FF0000"]1:1 In the beginning [b]God[/b] created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the [b]Spirit of God [/b]was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "[b]Let there be light," and there was light[/b]. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day. [/color]NIV

Trinitarians believe that the Holy Trinity is present in these verses (See Bold letters). To wit;

God is God the Father, Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, and light is Christ. Or let us consider Louisville’s analysis, God’s word ‘Let there be light’ is Christ. Actually, the ‘word’ and ‘light’ is one and the same because when God speaks, it is done, meaning without space and time between the ‘word’ and the ‘existence or fulfillment of that word’.

Now, I asked who is that God before He said ‘Let there be light’?

Why, I asked it? Because, if that God is ‘God the Father’ then the Trinity is not at all present in this ‘one’ particular time at the very beginning of ‘creation’, and in that ‘time’ this God is in the dark.

But it is written in 1 John 1:5

[color="#FF0000"]This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.[/color]

That is why I ask, who is that God before he said 'Let there be light'?[/indent]

[KnightofChrist]

Light. The sun was made on the fourth day, and placed in the firmament to distinguish the seasons, &c.; but the particles of fire were created on the first day, and by their, or the earth's motion, served to discriminate day from the preceding night, or darkness, which was upon the face of the deep. (Haydock) --- Perhaps this body of light might resemble the bright cloud which accompanied the Israelites, Exodus xiv. 19, or the three first days might have a kind of imperfect sun, or be like one of our cloudy days. Nothing can be defined with certainty respecting the nature of this primeval light. (Calmet)

Two great lights. God created on the first day light, which being moved from east to west, by its rising and setting made morning and evening. But on the fourth day he ordered and distributed this light, and made the sun, moon, and stars. The moon, though much less than the stars, is here called a great light, from its giving a far greater light to earth than any of them. (Challoner)

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id327.html"]source[/url]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='reyb' post='1739249' date='Dec 30 2008, 10:51 PM'][indent]I do not accept the doctrine of the Holy Trinity but I do believe in God. I always say there is no historical Jesus but it does not mean there is no Jesus Christ at all. What I am saying is this ...historical Jesus is just an interpretation of a reader to the scripure but it is not a historical reality. These writers (of the scriptures) are not referring to this historical Jesus, they are referring to another Jesus different from your historical Jesus.

Okay, I will read what you have posted and I will give my views about it. TY.
[/indent][/quote]

Thank you (the post I would like you to reply to is #188). In regards to the Trinity, I have some interesting verses to show you in, ironically enough, Genesis. [Again using the Douay-Rheims.]

[u]Genesis 1:26[/u]
And he said: Let [b]us[/b] make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

[u]Genesis 3:22[/u]
And he said: Behold Adam is become [b]as one of us[/b], knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

I have emphasized the use of "us" in both of these passages. How do you account for this?

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1739309' date='Dec 31 2008, 12:24 AM']Thank you (the post I would like you to reply to is #188). In regards to the Trinity, I have some interesting verses to show you in, ironically enough, Genesis. [Again using the Douay-Rheims.]

[u]Genesis 1:26[/u]
And he said: Let [b]us[/b] make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

[u]Genesis 3:22[/u]
And he said: Behold Adam is become [b]as one of us[/b], knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

I have emphasized the use of "us" in both of these passages. How do you account for this?[/quote]

You are arguing from nuances in the translation of a language not even in the same family of the language we are using here. The early Hebrews were henotheists, not trinitarian monotheists. I think you would be hard pressed to find a single Rabbi who accecpted your rather uniwue interpretation here, nor should they.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Hassan