Holy Trinity - The Devil's Doctrine

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738633' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:20 AM'][indent]Why should we ignore that ‘light’ in genesis? You said that ‘light’ is a metaphor of ‘Jesus Christ’, how about the entire narration of that first day, Is it a metaphor of something related to Jesus Christ or not? [/indent][/quote]

Because light is part of creation and we are focusing on God, not the creation. Yes, light is a [i]metaphor[/i] for Christ, but "Let there be light" [i]is[/i] Christ.

Point being, all three Persons of the Trinity are manifested in Gen 1:1-3. God the Father, God the Spirit, and God the Word speaking light (and everything else) into existence.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738637' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:22 AM']Because light is part of creation and we are focusing on God, not the creation. Yes, light is a [i]metaphor[/i] for Christ, but "Let there be light" [i]is[/i] Christ.

Point being, all three Persons of the Trinity are manifested in Gen 1:1-3. God the Father, God the Spirit, and God the Word speaking light (and everything else) into existence.[/quote]

[indent]Okay. So where is that God and His Spirit before this 'light'? (If we will consider the entire narration of this first day)[/indent]

Edited December 30, 2008 by reyb

[Ziggamafu]

But Reyb - what you think when Scripture the says here!!! that we can know that the troops "stumble:"

Nahum 2:5 He summons his picked troops,
yet they stumble on their way.

and in "Light" of this, why God says that he has signet ring hmmm??? (Haggai 2:23)

Now you see how I bring the entire threads together into one theme in these critical God's Words. I know you can see it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738650' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:08 AM'][indent]Okay. So where is that God and His Spirit before this 'light'? (If we will consider the entire narration of this first day)[/indent][/quote]

You keep overlooking the Son. All three existed eternally. They had no location because locations exist in the universe and the universe did not exist before Creation. Before light, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simply existed -- in a fully open, giving, and loving relationship with one another.

[Guest Jon]

[quote name='mortify' post='1734695' date='Dec 24 2008, 12:23 AM']Love doesn't exist by itself, it requires a Lover, a Beloved, and Love.[/quote]


What a perfect opportunity to share this:


[b] The Lover and the Beloved


God is Love. And Love must love. And to love there
must be a Beloved. But since God is Existence infinite
and eternal there is no one for Him to love but Himself.
And in order to love Himself He must imagine Himself as
the Beloved whom He as the Lover imagines He loves.[/b]

[b]Beloved and Lover implies separation. And separation creates
longing; and longing causes search. And the wider and the
more intense the search the greater the separation and the
more terrible the longing.

When longing is most intense separation is complete, and the
purpose of separation, which was that Love might experience
itself as Lover and Beloved is fulfilled; and union follows.
And when union is attained, the Lover knows that he himself
was all along the Beloved whom he loved and desired union with;
and that all the impossible situations that he overcame were
were obstacles whch he himself had placed in the path to himself.

To attain union is so impossibly difficult because it is impossible to
become what you already are! Union is nothing other than
knowledge of oneself as the Only One.[/b]


Talk amounst yourselves...;)

[Guest Jon]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738637' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:22 AM']Because light is part of creation and we are focusing on God, not the creation. Yes, light is a [i]metaphor[/i] for Christ, but "Let there be light" [i]is[/i] Christ.

Point being, all three Persons of the Trinity are manifested in Gen 1:1-3. God the Father, God the Spirit, and God the Word speaking light (and everything else) into existence.[/quote]

[color="#000080"]Actually, Light is not [i]only[/i] a metaphor for Christ. As the burning bush was not really a burning bush...With all due request, my Christian brothers and sisters have long thought that light was the light of understanding or the light that lights your path, etc.

I submit to you it is indeed an actual Light - the Light that is in each of us and can be seen without hurting your eyes, but is within you, seen with your inner eye- thus, the mysteries of the Third Eye, the Seat of the Soul.

[i]If thine eye be single thy whole body will be filled with light.[/i] Matthew 5:22 (KJV)
It is not a metaphor. And I understand it is hard to switch to that possibility or new concept when for centuries and your whole life you have been taught something else. It is a mystical truth experiened by very blessed people. Which all of us are.

And all of us are pure light - we know that by the splitting of the atom. The Transfiguration of Jesus was just an example when He showed Peter, James and John His True Self without His fleshly garment.

Sorry, I don't mean to rock the boat of old concepts, but if even one dives deeper with this new possibility then any ridicule I may experience here later will be worth it.

John 16:12 [i]I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.[/i]

There are many mysteries still to be understood by each of us individually apart from dogmas and religions and past concepts that can keep us in an infant state. The mysteries of the Creator are far too vast to be put into words -but must be indiviually sought and experienced.

God bless,
Jon[/color]

[bonkers]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738507' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:16 PM']In the first place, you need to define what is a person. How is it that you and I can both be human in nature yet two different people? What about angels who share a preternatural nature yet many angels (or persons).[/quote]

'Human' is just a word, 'god' I assume is more than just a word. When you worship god you are worshipping god, not the three persons individually he assumes. You and I are also not of the same essence, so it's a poor analogy.

[quote]Yet God created limitations. You are right that God is infinitely powerful, but God is also infinitely good and loving, and God is Truth. Therefore, God cannot contradict himself or change. Whether or not God needs to be three Persons or five or 193 or just God to be Love, he is three Persons. That's part of his nature as a loving God, because true love must be directed outside of itself.[/quote]

And yet we go back to the notion of free will. True love is chosen and done so as an preference to hate. Love cannot exist without hate. Where is hate?

[quote]If God is only one Person, it is impossible for love to exist before the Creation because God had nobody to love. You might say, then, that God created love and gave humans the greatest capacity to love one another. However, you immediately run into another problem because we were created in God's image. Why would God give us the capacity to love if God lacks this capacity within himself?[/quote]

If we were created in gods image how is it we have the capacity to choose between love and hate and god doesn't? Doesn't god have free will? An infinitely superior god wouldnt' be bound by having to be love. He'd be whatever he wanted to be, he might also be hate, and hate might be the true measure of perfection (in his eyes), and we'd all have to live according to that standard. God isn't bound by human concepts such as love. I'd say if anything, he is beyond love, and if he is love, it is his essence and something beyond our little fallible minds can comprehend.

[quote]Another point: If God is only one Person, it means God needs us -- part of his creation -- to something that he cannot do himself, which is love. It doesn't make sense that God should need us for anything.[/quote]

If god is one person, it makes a far more plausible for case for creation. But that you argue he is love, and he is a trinity, he already gets loads of love from jesus, so he has no need to be loved more, unless that love he's getting isn't really love because it isn't free.

[reyb]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1738738' date='Dec 30 2008, 07:57 AM']But Reyb - what you think when Scripture the says here!!! that we can know that the troops "stumble:"

Nahum 2:5 He summons his picked troops,
yet they stumble on their way.

and in "Light" of this, why God says that he has signet ring hmmm??? (Haggai 2:23)

Now you see how I bring the entire threads together into one theme in these critical God's Words. I know you can see it.[/quote]


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738768' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:32 AM']You keep overlooking the Son. All three existed eternally. They had no location because locations exist in the universe and the universe did not exist before Creation. Before light, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simply existed -- in a fully open, giving, and loving relationship with one another.[/quote]

[indent]
The Holy Trinity - the God’s revelation of himself but still a mystery - is your God. Yes sure why not….

[color="#FF0000"]Now write another decree in the king's name in behalf of the Jews as seems best to you, and seal it with the king's signet ring — for no document written in the king's name and sealed with his ring can be revoked[/color]." (Est 8:8)

[color="#FF0000"]Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand. [/color](Job 38:1-4)

[color="#FF0000"]"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. [/color] (Isa 1:18-20)

[color="#FF0000"]"What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years! [/color](Job 38:19-21)

Since you confess you know the Truth, now I asked, ‘Where is that God before he said ‘Let there be Light’? Please do not answer me ‘you do not know’ because it is already written. And who is that God the Father while the God the Spirit is hovering over the waters from where the earth was formless and empty and darkness was over the surface of the deep?

[color="#FF0000"]Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" [/color](Ex 3:13-14)

[color="#FF0000"]Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.[/color] (2 Thes 2:1-4)

Then….

[color="#FF0000"]The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it[/color].
(John 1:5)

And then …

[color="#FF0000"]Jesus said, "Father, forgive them , for they do not know what they are doing." [/color](Luke 23:34)

Now…

Since you confess you know the Truth of God, and we all know that only God can understand God. Thus, who is that God, who said ‘Let there be Light’? And do not answer me ‘you do not know’ because it is already written. Who is that Father in the dark before the light shines?

Then…

[color="#FF0000"]Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.[/color] (Luke 23:46)

Again I will ask you, who is that God the Father in the dark and said ‘Let there be Light’? Tell me.[/indent]

[Guest Jon]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1735648' date='Dec 25 2008, 11:14 PM']Is your name reyB?[/quote]

I had been following your posts, Winchester with smiles - then suddenly this. That was rude and
potentially hurtful. I was under the impression a person could interject on a forum such as this without being hurled a hurtful remark -esp. on a Christian site.
I am glad it did not happen to me. The world is an insensitive place. I don't come here for mean or glib reactions.

I am still reading through pages 4-9 -maybe this was mentioned already.
I believe if it was not brought up - it should have been for others to be aware of people's feelings and to be more polite.

All my opinion.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738768' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:32 AM']You keep overlooking the Son. [color="#0000FF"]All three existed eternally[/color]. They had no location because locations exist in the universe and the universe did not exist before Creation. [color="#0000FF"]Before light, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simply existed[/color] -- in a fully open, giving, and loving relationship with one another.[/quote]

[indent][color="#0000FF"]Before light, God the Father, Son (who is light), and Holy Spirit simply existed[/color].....?

If that is the case, why then God said 'let there be light' if that 'light' is already present?

This is our verse...

Gen 1:3-4

3 [color="#FF0000"]And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. [/color]NIV

My question is, before He said 'Let there be light', is that light already present or not? Why then the next statement 'and there was light'?
[/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1738908' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:12 PM']'Human' is just a word, 'god' I assume is more than just a word. When you worship god you are worshipping god, not the three persons individually he assumes. You and I are also not of the same essence, so it's a poor analogy.[/quote]

Human... giraffe... cantelope... all just meaningless words.

No, we aren't of the same essence, but we do share the same human nature. It's not an analogy, but a fact: we are two different people, so what's it mean to be a person?


[quote name='bonkers' post='1738908' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:12 PM']And yet we go back to the notion of free will. True love is chosen and done so as an preference to hate. Love cannot exist without hate. Where is hate?[/quote]

No, hate is the absence of love. Evil is the absence of good. Satan did not create hate or evil or any of these "bad" things. Evil is merely rebellion against God and the destruction of his creation.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1738908' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:12 PM']If we were created in gods image how is it we have the capacity to choose between love and hate and god doesn't? Doesn't god have free will? An infinitely superior god wouldnt' be bound by having to be love. He'd be whatever he wanted to be, he might also be hate, and hate might be the true measure of perfection (in his eyes), and we'd all have to live according to that standard. God isn't bound by human concepts such as love. I'd say if anything, he is beyond love, and if he is love, it is his essence and something beyond our little fallible minds can comprehend.[/quote]

If you could choose how happy you are in life, wouldn't you choose the greatest possible happiness? Why choose anything less? Free will is a gift given out of Love, so that when we choose to love God, we do so freely and openly. You are creating a god in your own image: one who would rule over creation like any of the countless self-centered autocratic rulers in human history. That isn't how God rules. In God's economy, humility and self-sacrifice at the keys to glory and greatness.

Yes, our minds are infinitesimally small compared to God, but he didn't leave us clueless either. Art always reveals something about the artist, and we have a vast, immeasurable universe through which to learn about God.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1738908' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:12 PM']If god is one person, it makes a far more plausible for case for creation. But that you argue he is love, and he is a trinity, he already gets loads of love from jesus, so he has no need to be loved more, unless that love he's getting isn't really love because it isn't free.[/quote]

God doesn't need anything outside of himself. If he did, he wouldn't be much of a God. The purpose of all Creation is to glorify and love God, and God gave humanity the greatest capacity to glorify and love him, one another, and the rest of creation. The whole universe was created purely out of God's pleasure and love. He doesn't need us, but he loves us and longs for us to be with him and love him back.

Edited December 30, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Giolla]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738930' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:33 PM'][indent][color="#0000FF"]Before light, God the Father, Son (who is light), and Holy Spirit simply existed[/color].....?

If that is the case, why then God said 'let there be light' if that 'light' is already present?

This is our verse...

Gen 1:3-4

3 [color="#FF0000"]And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. [/color]NIV

My question is, before He said 'Let there be light', is that light already present or not? Why then the next statement 'and there was light'?
[/indent][/quote]


In the long run what you are doing is A) you are questioning God. and B)you are asking us to answer questions that only God himself can answer because not even the highest level of theologian can understand God's thinking.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738909' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:13 PM']Again I will ask you, who is that God the Father in the dark and said ‘Let there be Light’? Tell me.[/quote]

God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... always was, is, and always will be.

[Galloglasses' Alt]

[quote name='Jon' post='1738927' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:25 PM']I had been following your posts, Winchester with smiles - then suddenly this. That was rude and
potentially hurtful. I was under the impression a person could interject on a forum such as this without being hurled a hurtful remark -esp. on a Christian site.
I am glad it did not happen to me. The world is an insensitive place. I don't come here for mean or glib reactions.

I am still reading through pages 4-9 -maybe this was mentioned already.
I believe if it was not brought up - it should have been for others to be aware of people's feelings and to be more polite.

All my opinion.[/quote]
Winchester said this because his post was a challenged directed at Reyb, and if you have been following his posts, you would not be surprised that he would've been so ired to have made such a cutting statement when someone else responded to his challenge.

If you're worried about the feelings of others, maybe you should've proof read your post before submitting it when you said "I had been following your posts, Winchester with smiles" As potentially this sentence could be interpreted instead of you enjoying his posts that you were 'smiling knowingly' I'm all for being tactful in your words, but be careful yourself when you post such ambiguous statements.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738930' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:33 PM'][indent][color="#0000FF"]Before light, God the Father, Son (who is light), and Holy Spirit simply existed[/color].....?

If that is the case, why then God said 'let there be light' if that 'light' is already present?

This is our verse...

Gen 1:3-4

3 [color="#FF0000"]And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. [/color]NIV

My question is, before He said 'Let there be light', is that light already present or not? Why then the next statement 'and there was light'?
[/indent][/quote]

Literal light was not present. Jesus Christ as "light" is Jesus Christ as "pure goodness" whereas the Devil is "darkness" or "pure evil."