Holy Trinity - The Devil's Doctrine

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1738315' date='Dec 29 2008, 07:24 PM']C'mon? God, THREE PERSONS (a father, a son and a holy spirit) having existed eternally.. yet the same god. No, it doesn't make sense, it can't be comprehend by the rational mind therefore it's against reason.[/quote]
Of course God is beyond the created intellect, but that doesn't mean that the doctrine of the Trinity is irrational; instead, it simply means that God cannot be reduced to what can be conceived by created human reason.

[quote name='bonkers' post='1738315' date='Dec 29 2008, 07:24 PM']No, god can be love because god is infinitely powerful and he can be whoever the heck he wants to be. He doesn't have to be three persons to be love, that's putting a limitation on him and god is BEYOND limitations.[/quote]
Infinite power really is irrelevant to the present discussion. God doesn't have to be anything that we can conceive. But your first comment can be used to support the Trinitarian position as well as your own, so it proves nothing either for or against the doctrine of the Trinity.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1738373' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:48 PM']Of course God is beyond the created intellect, but that doesn't mean that the doctrine of the Trinity is irrational; instead, it simply means that God cannot be reduced to what can be conceived by created human reason.


Infinite power really is irrelevant to the present discussion. God doesn't have to be anything that we can conceive. But your first comment can be used to support the Trinitarian position as well as your own, so it proves nothing either for or against the doctrine of the Trinity.[/quote]

[indent]Okay. Okay. Okay. Suppose God is triune. Now, what happen to you? Are you a chosen one just because you accept and believe that God is three-in-one? Did God really revealed to you that He is 'three in one'? Did you hear God yourself? Or you just believe He is trinity.[/indent]

[bonkers]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1738373' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:48 PM']Of course God is beyond the created intellect, but that doesn't mean that the doctrine of the Trinity is irrational; instead, it simply means that God cannot be reduced to what can be conceived by created human reason.

Infinite power really is irrelevant to the present discussion. God doesn't have to be anything that we can conceive. But your first comment can be used to support the Trinitarian position as well as your own, so it proves nothing either for or against the doctrine of the Trinity.[/quote]

That was my point, for god to exist he doesn't [i]have[/i] to be a trinity? He could be a twig for all we know, if he chooses to. But the idea of a trinity, or something existing eternally as three persons is against the rational mind. We can't comprehend it, on the surface it seems absurd, so it probably is.

[reyb]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1737622' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:19 AM']Ah yes...well, prove to me that the Titanic sank (suppose that there's no proof available). Just use your reasoning abilities and logic.

[/quote]

[indent]That's the point. You are trying to prove it although you already accepted it to be true (by faith) even before you rationalize it. So what is the reason of this rationalization if not to prove to us and to convice yourself that the Holy Trinity is correct and perfect. But in the end, you yourselves admit it is beyond 'comprehension' and beyond your 'reason' and beyond....way up there that you yourself cannot understand but still you give credit to yourself by saying 'We are correct'. You have 'perfect understanding' of God's nature from where you yourself do not understand it? What kind of logical explanation or rationalization is it? (Obviously, it is your faith that works to admit it and not because of this rational explanation.) Do you think this is the way these witnesses (writers of scriptures) are telling us? Do you think 'God is still a mystery to them? [/indent]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738423' date='Dec 29 2008, 08:11 PM']Okay. Okay. Okay. Suppose God is triune. Now, what happen to you?[/quote]
I have been baptized into name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which means that I am a Christian; for I have submitted to baptism as Christ Himself commanded it be done.

[quote name='reyb' post='1738423' date='Dec 29 2008, 08:11 PM']Are you a chosen one just because you accept and believe that God is three-in-one?[/quote]
No, I am not a "chosen one" just because I accept God as a Trinity of persons; instead, I am a "chosen one" because God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, has made me a member of His Church. By being baptized into the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus.

[quote name='reyb' post='1738423' date='Dec 29 2008, 08:11 PM']Did God really revealed to you that He is 'three in one'?[/quote]
Yes, God has revealed Himself to me as a Trinity of persons, for in the New Testament Christ revealed His relationship to the Father, while He also promised to send the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, into the world in order to confirm the Church in His message, and to give her the power to preach the Gospel until He returns at the end of time.

[quote name='reyb' post='1738423' date='Dec 29 2008, 08:11 PM']Did God really revealed to you that He is 'three in one'?[/quote]
Yes, God revealed Himself to me as "three in one" through the sacred scriptures, the apostolic tradition, and the preaching of the Church. God the Father, His Logos (Word), and His Spirit are three distinct persons, and yet they are one in power, energy, majesty, glory, and Godhead.

[quote name='reyb' post='1738423' date='Dec 29 2008, 08:11 PM']Did you hear God yourself?[/quote]
Yes, I have heard God for myself, for He has spoken about Himself through His Word (Logos) and in His Spirit, and the sacred scriptures, holy tradition, and the life and teaching of the Church attest to this true faith. Thus, by being baptized into His name (i.e., the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) I have been made a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

[quote name='reyb' post='1738423' date='Dec 29 2008, 08:11 PM']Or you just believe He is trinity.
her Did you hear God yourself? Or you just believe He is trinity.[/quote]
I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God in Trinity of persons, and I believe in this one God in Trinity because He has revealed His triune life and existence to me in the scriptural texts, oral tradition, and the life of the Church. Ultimately, my belief in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is a gift of grace, and so it is not my own doing.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1738462' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:34 PM']I have been baptized into name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which means that I am a Christian; for I have submitted to baptism as Christ Himself commanded it be done.


No, I am not a "chosen one" just because I accept God as a Trinity of person; instead, I am a "chosen one" because God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has made me a member of His Church. By being baptized into the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus.


Yes, God has revealed Himself to me as a Trinity of persons, for in the New Testament Christ revealed His relationship to the Father, while He also promised to send the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, into the world in order to confirm the Church in His message, and to give her the power to preach the Gospel until He returns at the end of time.


Yes, God revealed Himself to me as "three in one" through the sacred scriptures, the apostolic tradition, and the preaching of the Church. God the Father, His Logos (Word), and His Spirit are three distinct persons, and yet they are one in power, energy, majesty, glory, and Godhead.


Yes, I have heard God for myself, for He has spoken about Himself through His Word (Logos) and in His Spirit, and the sacred scriptures, holy tradition, and the life and teaching of the Church attest to this true faith. Thus, by being baptized into His name (i.e., the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) I have been made a partaker of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).


I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God in Trinity of persons, and I believe in this one God in Trinity because He has revealed His triune life and existence to me in the scriptural texts, oral tradition, and the life of the Church. Ultimately, my belief in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is a gift of grace, and so it is not my own doing.[/quote]


[indent]Very well said. Now, there are some protestant 'oneness' out there who will confess the same thing just like what you said 'Yes, I have heard God for myself, for He has spoken about Himself through His Word (Logos) and in His Spirit, and the sacred scriptures'.' Do you think they really hear God themselves? [/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738144' date='Dec 29 2008, 09:00 PM'][indent]Gen 1:1-5
[color="#FF0000"]1:1 In the beginning [b]God[/b] created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the [b]Spirit of God [/b]was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there [b]be light[/b]," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day. [/color]NIV[/indent]

[indent]Let us start from the very beginning.[/indent]

[indent]There is God, there is light and there is Spirit. Again, if I am not mistken you called it - your trinity.[/indent][/quote]

Two out of three. "Let there be light" is the Word of God, that we know as Jesus.

Edited December 30, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738496' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:03 AM']Two out of three. "Let there be light" is the Word of God, that we know as Jesus.[/quote]
[indent]What do you mean by 'Two out of three'? Do you mean, God and The Spirit of God says 'Let there be light' and then the light shines? (and that light is Christ).[/indent]

Edited December 30, 2008 by reyb

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1738315' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:24 PM']C'mon? God, THREE PERSONS (a father, a son and a holy spirit) having existed eternally.. yet the same god. No, it doesn't make sense, it can't be comprehend by the rational mind therefore it's against reason.[/quote]

In the first place, you need to define what is a person. How is it that you and I can both be human in nature yet two different people? What about angels who share a preternatural nature yet many angels (or persons).

[quote name='bonkers' post='1738315' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:24 PM']No, god can be love because god is infinitely powerful and he can be whoever the heck he wants to be. He doesn't have to be three persons to be love, that's putting a limitation on him and god is BEYOND limitations.[/quote]

Yet God created limitations. You are right that God is infinitely powerful, but God is also infinitely good and loving, and God is Truth. Therefore, God cannot contradict himself or change. Whether or not God needs to be three Persons or five or 193 or just God to be Love, he is three Persons. That's part of his nature as a loving God, because true love must be directed outside of itself.

If God is only one Person, it is impossible for love to exist before the Creation because God had nobody to love. You might say, then, that God created love and gave humans the greatest capacity to love one another. However, you immediately run into another problem because we were created in God's image. Why would God give us the capacity to love if God lacks this capacity within himself?

Another point: If God is only one Person, it means God needs us -- part of his creation -- to something that he cannot do himself, which is love. It doesn't make sense that God should need us for anything.


Besides, even though God is all-powerful, the greatest power is manifested when it is not required of the one who is powerful.

"And you were given this swiftness, not for haste
Nor chiefly that you may go where you will,
But in the rush of everything to waste,
That you may have the power of standing still."

-Robert Frost, The Master Speed

Edited December 30, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738501' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:12 AM'][indent]What do you mean by 'Two out of three'? Do you mean, God and The Spirit of God says 'Let there be light' and then the light shines? (and that light is Christ).[/indent][/quote]

The light is obviously a metaphor for Christ, but Jesus is literally the actual Word spoken by God, "Let there be light." Anytime God speaks, Jesus is present as the Word of God.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us." -John 1:14

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738144' date='Dec 29 2008, 09:00 PM'][indent]Gen 1:1-5
[color="#FF0000"]1:1 In the beginning [b]God[/b] created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the [b]Spirit of God [/b]was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there [b]be light[/b]," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day. [/color]NIV[/indent]

[indent]Let us start from the very beginning.[/indent]

[indent]There is God, there is light and there is Spirit. Again, if I am not mistken you called it - your trinity.[/indent][/quote]


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738496' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:03 AM']Two out of three. "Let there be light" is the Word of God, that we know as Jesus.[/quote]

[indent]Suppose God is God the Father (First Person in Trinity) and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit (Third Person in Trinity) and the Light is The Christ (Second Person in the Trinity).

I know you can see it. Now, where is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit before this Light Shines? And why they (God the Father and God the Holy Spirit) will say 'Let there be Light' if they are not in the dark?[/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738517' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:31 AM'][indent]Suppose God is God the Father (First Person in Trinity) and the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit (Third Person in Trinity) and the Light is The Christ (Second Person in the Trinity).

I know you can see it. Now, where is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit before this Light Shines? And why they (God the Father and God the Holy Spirit) will say 'Let there be Light' if they are not in the dark?[/indent][/quote]

Congratulations, reyb, this is exactly why light is a METAPHOR for Christ. The light is NOT Christ. Light is part of creation; the first part of creation in this particular narrative. Notice the sun is not created until the fourth day.

Suppose the Words of God, "Let there be light," "Let there be a firmament," "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together," etc. are the Second Person of the Trinity. Light did not exist until the Word of God brought it into existence, but the Word of God always existed because God always existed without beginning or end.

"All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." -John 1:3

Edited December 30, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738529' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:47 AM']Congratulations, reyb, this is exactly why light is a METAPHOR for Christ. The light is NOT Christ. Light is part of creation; the first part of creation in this particular narrative. Notice the sun is not created until the fourth day.

Suppose the Words of God, "Let there be light," "Let there be a firmament," "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together," etc. are the Second Person of the Trinity. Light did not exist until the Word of God brought it into existence, but the Word of God always existed because God always existed without beginning or end.

"All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." -John 1:3[/quote]

[indent]So that light in Genesis is just a metaphor for Christs but not Christ himself because Jesus Christ is the historical Jesus. Am I correct?[/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1738556' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:18 AM'][indent]So that light in Genesis is just a metaphor for Christs but not Christ himself because Jesus Christ is the historical Jesus. Am I correct?[/indent][/quote]

Huh? Forget the light. That has nothing to do with my point.

Jesus is the Word of God. When God speaks, Jesus is present. Notice that on each day of Creation, God speaks things into existence. God speaking -- the Word of God -- is Jesus.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738630' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:26 AM']Huh? Forget the light. That has nothing to do with my point.

Jesus is the Word of God. When God speaks, Jesus is present. Notice that on each day of Creation, God speaks things into existence. God speaking -- the Word of God -- is Jesus.[/quote]

[indent]Why should we ignore that ‘light’ in genesis? You said that ‘light’ is a metaphor of ‘Jesus Christ’, how about the entire narration of that first day, Is it a metaphor of something related to Jesus Christ or not? [/indent]

Edited December 30, 2008 by reyb