Holy Trinity - The Devil's Doctrine

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1737297' date='Dec 28 2008, 11:25 PM']Sure it is. 3 distincts persons, a father, a son and a holy spirit, having exisitng eternally?

That's against reason.[/quote]

Why is it against reason?

For God to be Love, he must have someone to love (Father loves the Son) and the love between them is so strong that it also takes on the form of a Person (the Holy Spirit).

In like manner, marriage is an image of God's nature as husband and wife love each other and that love also takes on the form of a person through their children (at least being open to new life).

It's no coincidence that Islam lacks this concept of "God is Love" and also rejects the Trinity. Their concept of God is more like a master whom we are created to serve.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1737297' date='Dec 28 2008, 10:25 PM']Sure it is. 3 distincts persons, a father, a son and a holy spirit, having exisitng eternally?

That's against reason.[/quote]

bonkers, your atheist, right?

Don't you think a consequence of believing in no God also leads to a disbelief in the Holy Trinity?

In order for me to answer your question, I would have to go back to the existence of God with you. This thread at least has one believing in God and (obviously) the devil, neither of whom you believe in.

Could I recommend you a book?

Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. Either way, learning more about what people think and believe is a better understanding of those things you do not believe in.

However, back to the fact that it is a mystery. An infinite mystery.

It is the supreme mystery in a double sense: it deals with the highest truth: and it is most inaccessible to the created mind. Yet certain elements of it can be grasped by us. ...

From Frank Sheed's "A Map of Life":

[quote]The Three Persons--the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost--each possess the one Divine nature: they do not share it: they each possess it in its totality. It is important to grasp exactly what this means. Men, we say, have one nature, in the sense that they all are human and human nature is one thing. But though Brown and I are of one nature, I cannot think with Brown's mind nor love with Brown's will. I must think with my own mind and love with my own will. So that, although in a general sense human nature is one, in the concrete each man has his own nature and acts in it. With the Three Persons of the Trinity this is not so. There is but one Divine nature, one Divine mind, one Divine will. The three Persons each use the one mind to know with, the one will to love with. For there is but the one absolute Divine nature. Thus there are not three Gods, but one God. The Christian revelation cannot allow the faintest derogation from pure monotheism. The three Persons, then, are not separate. But they are distinct. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God. But the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Holy Ghost, nor the Holy Ghost the Father.[/quote]

[reyb]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1737397' date='Dec 28 2008, 11:24 PM']I said this because your debating tactic is not only circuler, but it also criss crosses, whereby you jump from one form or part of your arguement to another, or backtrack to a certain point, or redirect your oponents to somthing you type earlier in an, (apparently), effort to either confuse your opponents, wear them out or, the most likely course of action, stringing out a gnat by dragging this arguement as far as it can go by going ove each and every possible particular without really giving any answer. It reminded me aot of what some parliamentarians do when they want to delay bills being passed.

This isn't an accusation, and I am not accuing you of deliberate obstructionism, but it surely looks like it. Especially the exasperated attitudes of your opponents.[/quote]
[indent]okay. thank you.
For a while let us concentrate on trinity theory that rationalize the statement 'God is love' if this trinitiy theory really gives a 'logical reason' or it will ended up in 'faith' as the reason of this trinity theory in rationalizing this statement.
[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1737214' date='Dec 28 2008, 09:22 PM']I think I should repeat a very important factor again; the Trinity is beyond our reason but not against our reason. While God is infinite and we are finite, how do you expect to grasp something infinite with our finite limitations?

[color="#0000FF"]by saying it is the Devil's Doctrine IS wrong and where you are in error[/color]. (not to mention, by making the claim, you are seriously walking along Anti-Catholicism territory; people who don't debate, just seem to say nothing but really loudly)

Frank Sheed puts it simply: "God did not reveal mysteries simply that we might ignore them. They are the richest food for the intellect, not like a blank wall stopping all progress but like an endless gallery—the mind can go deeper and deeper, yet never can come to the end. . . . The mind may eternally grow on a mystery precisely because it cannot be exhausted."

While you are free to disagree with our view, you have yet to show your true understanding of our faith and call out any type of error specifically (evidenced by your many posts) only by erroneously calling it "the Devil's doctrine" which is uncharitable.

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal” (1 Cor. 13:1)[/quote]

[indent]Let me answer this a little later. I hope it is okay with you. Let us concentrate on rationalizing the statement 'God is love' by the 'logical explanation' of doctrine of the Holy Trinity.[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1737541' date='Dec 29 2008, 02:38 AM']Why is it against reason?

[color="#0000FF"]For God to be Love, he must have someone to love (Father loves the Son) and the love between them is so strong that it also takes on the form of a Person (the Holy Spirit). [/color]
In like manner, marriage is an image of God's nature as husband and wife love each other and that love also takes on the form of a person through their children (at least being open to new life).

It's no coincidence that Islam lacks this concept of "God is Love" and also rejects the Trinity. Their concept of God is more like a master whom we are created to serve.[/quote]

[indent]The statement ‘[color="#0000FF"]For God to be love’ [/color]signifies that this statement has already a pre-conceive idea that God is love but in order to justify that God is love from the very beginning (before the creation) then the following statement was made ‘[color="#0000FF"]He must love someone to love’ [/color]otherwise he is not love itself.

This is the rational explanation according to you (Trinitarians) that ‘God is love’.

When you said, ‘God the Father loves God the Son’. This statement means God the Father is the ‘actor’ and not the ‘act’ itself which is love. Again when you said, ‘God the Son loves God the Spirit’, it means, God the Son is the ‘actor’ and not the ‘act’ itself which is love. Again when you said, ‘God the Spirit loves God the Father’ it means, God the Spirit is the ‘actor’ and not the ‘act’ itself which is love.

Thus, no matter how intense that love is, God cannot be love itself in this scenario because God is the actor and not the act itself.

Therefore, this rational explanation does not logically proven ‘God is love’ but rather it shows that ‘God is a loving God who loves himself’.

What I mean is this, your suppose-to-be rational explanation does not justify your pre-conceive idea that ‘God is love’ which you have been accepted to be true even before you rationalize it. In short, you accepted ‘God is love’ because of faith not because of this suppose to be ‘rational’ explanation. [/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]Now, if you have other idea proving that ‘God is love’ with your trinity theory then, we can test it by assuming we do not know that ‘God is love’(suppose we do not read 1 john). Then let us see if this rational explanation will bring you to the idea that ‘God is love’. [/indent]

[Giolla]

Holy Trinity according to scripture.
Matthew 3:16
Matthew 28:18-19
Luke 1:30-35
2 Corinthians 13-13
Ephesians 2:18, 4:6
1 Timothy 2:5
1 Peter 1:12
1 John 5:7-8


Also if you believe that Our Lord is in fact God made flesh which is what Emmanuel (God is among us) means and there is proof of the Trinity how can you question that God is love. Also if you believe in the Holy Trinity but think of them as 3 separate entities acting outside of one another than that is polytheism and in turn heretical.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='reyb' post='1737603' date='Dec 29 2008, 09:42 AM'][indent]Now, if you have other idea proving that ‘God is love’ with your trinity theory then, we can test it by assuming we do not know that ‘God is love’(suppose we do not read 1 john). Then let us see if this rational explanation will bring you to the idea that ‘God is love’. [/indent][/quote]
Ah yes...well, prove to me that the Titanic sank (suppose that there's no proof available). Just use your reasoning abilities and logic.



The Christian faith believes in Revelation, i.e. that there are many things about God we cannot know without His having revealed them. The Trinity is one of those things. We cannot know it outside of Revelation. Leaving out John 1 or any other proof from Revelation is not a valid way to refute it. Since the argument is within the context of Christian belief, Christian Scriptures are a given source for proving the Christian faith.

However, if you really want to go down this road, consider the fact that only love has the ability to create.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1737591' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:27 AM'][indent]The statement ‘[color="#0000FF"]For God to be love’ [/color]signifies that this statement has already a pre-conceive idea that God is love but in order to justify that God is love from the very beginning (before the creation) then the following statement was made ‘[color="#0000FF"]He must love someone to love’ [/color]otherwise he is not love itself.[/quote]

First of all, I wasn't talking to you. I was replying to bonkers, who asked what the Trinity has to do with God being Love.

[quote name='reyb' post='1737591' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:27 AM']When you said, ‘God the Father loves God the Son’. This statement means God the Father is the ‘actor’ and not the ‘act’ itself which is love. Again when you said, ‘God the Son loves God the Spirit’, it means, God the Son is the ‘actor’ and not the ‘act’ itself which is love. Again when you said, ‘God the Spirit loves God the Father’ it means, God the Spirit is the ‘actor’ and not the ‘act’ itself which is love.

Thus, no matter how intense that love is, God cannot be love itself in this scenario because God is the actor and not the act itself.[/quote]

That wasn't all I said. Read the whole thing, reyb.

[quote name='reyb' post='1737591' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:27 AM']Therefore, this rational explanation does not logically proven ‘God is love’ but rather it shows that ‘God is a loving God who loves himself’.[/quote]

To emphasize what you conventiently overlooked, God does love himself, but it's not a selfish love precisely because God is three Persons (you only talked about two Persons). The Father's love is directed outside of the Father to the Son. The Son's love is directed outside of himself to the Father. Both love each other so intensely, we call their love the Holy Spirit. Yet God's love is still so overflowing that God created the universe and all forms of life purely out of love. Thus, we are created out of love: both out of divine love and (hopefully) out of human marital love.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Giolla' post='1737613' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:05 AM']Holy Trinity according to scripture.
Matthew 3:16
Matthew 28:18-19
Luke 1:30-35
2 Corinthians 13-13
Ephesians 2:18, 4:6
1 Timothy 2:5
1 Peter 1:12
1 John 5:7-8[/quote]

And my personal favorite, Genesis 1:1-3

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1737646' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:25 AM']And my personal favorite, Genesis 1:1-3 [/quote]
Don't forget 1:26

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1737651' date='Dec 29 2008, 12:41 PM']Don't forget 1:26[/quote]

Yeah, but that's too easily interpreted as the "royal we" since it doesn't include a specific mention of each Person of the Trinity like 1:1-3 does: Father, Spirit of God, and Word of God.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1737646' date='Dec 29 2008, 11:25 AM']And my personal favorite, Genesis 1:1-3 [/quote]

[indent]Okay. Let us discuss how this doctrine come into exitence. Now, you know that God is love whether you believe it thru your trinity formula or whatever. Let us leave it that way, God is love.[/indent]

[indent]This is your verse..

Gen 1:26
[color="#FF0000"]26 Then God said , "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." [/color]
NIV[/indent]
[indent]If I am not mistaken the word 'us' is referring to your Trinity.[/indent]

[reyb]

[indent]Gen 1:1-5
[color="#FF0000"]1:1 In the beginning [b]God[/b] created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the [b]Spirit of God [/b]was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there [b]be light[/b]," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day. [/color]NIV[/indent]

[indent]Let us start from the very beginning.[/indent]

[indent]There is God, there is light and there is Spirit. Again, if I am not mistken you called it - your trinity.[/indent]

[bonkers]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1737541' date='Dec 29 2008, 03:38 AM']Why is it against reason?[/quote]

C'mon? God, THREE PERSONS (a father, a son and a holy spirit) having existed eternally.. yet the same god. No, it doesn't make sense, it can't be comprehend by the rational mind therefore it's against reason.

[quote]For God to be Love, he must have someone to love (Father loves the Son) and the love between them is so strong that it also takes on the form of a Person (the Holy Spirit).[/quote]

No, god can be love because god is infinitely powerful and he can be whoever the heck he wants to be. He doesn't have to be three persons to be love, that's putting a limitation on him and god is BEYOND limitations.